2024 Presidential Debate

[Soen Eber]

I'm considerably more worried about Trump's commitment to NATO than I am about Biden's.

Well, he *is* open to flattery and bribery, so that just may have to be the only way to pull him in the right direction ...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Cindy Claveau]

A lot of media were claiming the debates didn't matter that much. They changed their tunes when Biden laid an egg, but now we see that nobody ever left. They were just hand wringing.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

I expected better from The Guardian.

The headline was sensationalist, leaving readers with the impression that Biden isn't fit to be President, not that he merely had a bad night. And no mention whatsoever of the fact Trump failed to answer half the questions posed to him, or that the ones he did answer were straight-up lies.

I guess I expected more even coverage from The Guardian, not for them to latch onto the idea that Biden isn't fit to be President.

 

[Mona Eberhardt]

How significant are these debates? How many people actually watch them?

Going through an election here in the UK Im struck by reporting about just how little the average brit is even exposed to the news and just how few pay any attention to our version of these debates. And surely, given its a two party system over there, the vote AGAINST trump is probably more important than the vote FOR biden?

You might be right, and I hope you're proven right. When, prior to the 2023 elections, Tsipras confronted Mitsotakis in the parliament on things like the rampant corruption and erosion of rule of law his government had "achieved", on the Predatorgate (look it up) spyware scandal, on the cover-up of the Tempi valley train crash etc., he literally wiped the floor with him. He was eloquent, provided excellent arguments and, above all, facts. Mitsotakis spoke like a 4chan-dwelling, Trump-loving, basement-dwelling incel. Yet, Mitsotakis (the oligarchs' favourite) beat Tsipras in a humiliating manner: 40.79% vs 20.07%.

PS: Of all European leaders, Mitsotakis always runs away screaming when his opponents call for a debate, even one held on his own terms.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The headline was sensationalist, leaving readers with the impression that Biden isn't fit to be President, not that he merely had a bad night. And no mention whatsoever of the fact Trump failed to answer half the questions posed to him, or that the ones he did answer were straight-up lies.

I guess I expected more even coverage from The Guardian, not for them to latch onto the idea that Biden isn't fit to be President.

It was reporting the immediate response of various European political leaders to how Biden performed in the debate, which seems not dissimilar to the various people in this thread reacted to what sounds to have been not one of Biden's more impressive debating performances.

I don't think the issue is so much whether he's fit to be president as whether he's capable of defeating someone so obviously unsuitable as Trump. Many people on this side of the Atlantic can't understand why Trump stands any sort of chance and neither can we understand why the Democrats are running a candidate who is -- for whatever reason -- struggling in a contest that should be a walkover.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Many people on this side of the Atlantic can't understand why Trump stands any sort of chance and neither can we understand why the Democrats are running a candidate who is -- for whatever reason -- struggling in a contest that should be a walkover.

Make that both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[Dirran]

By the same token in 2021 in Australia, Scott 'Scomo'* Morrison ran a Trump-style campaign, including transphobia, racist dog-whistling, and claims that electric cars would destroy the Great Australian Weekend. He lost 19 seats in an assembly of 150, the prime ministership, and the leadership of his party.

Early polls are showing that the debate either made no difference or actually benefited Biden. There's a point where the electorate just stops listening to a leader with low trust.

*Morrison stupidly tried to create his own nickname. Australians cheerfully changed Scomo into Scummo, Slomo, and the Liar from the Shire.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

I don't think the issue is so much whether he's fit to be president as whether he's capable of defeating someone so obviously unsuitable as Trump. Many people on this side of the Atlantic can't understand why Trump stands any sort of chance and neither can we understand why the Democrats are running a candidate who is -- for whatever reason -- struggling in a contest that should be a walkover.

Yeah, I don't get that either. Trump has poisoned the political well. I don't think there's anybody the DNC could trot out who would do well. If Biden, with all of the successes he's had in the past three years, can't do it, nobody can.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Many people on this side of the Atlantic can't understand why Trump stands any sort of chance and neither can we understand why the Democrats are running a candidate who is -- for whatever reason -- struggling in a contest that should be a walkover.

Many people here don't get it either... but I do want to point out there actually are quite a few European right wingers who seem to believe the right wing propaganda generated over here. I've met a few of them...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Many people here don't get it either... but I do want to point out there actually are quite a few European right wingers who seem to believe the right wing propaganda generated over here. I've met a few of them...

Yes, but it's not the MAGA hard core who will decide the election. I can well believe that 30-odd percent of the voters will, for whatever reason, back Trump regardless, because they quite like the idea of fascism, or think they do, so long as it's not directed against them. But around half the electorate?

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Yes, but it's not the MAGA hard core who will decide the election. I can well believe that 30-odd percent of the voters will, for whatever reason, back Trump regardless, because they quite like the idea of fascism, or think they do, long as it's not directed against them. But around half the electorate?

Yes, we have a surprising number of actual fascists here. But many who will vote for Trump are just in complete denial of what he is. A lot of people in my family have been die hard republicans for most of their lives and just flat don't believe Trump is that different in that respect.

 

[Noodles]

Yes, we have a surprising number of actual fascists here. But many who will vote for Trump are just in complete denial of what he is. A lot of people in my family have been die hard republicans for most of their lives and just flat don't believe Trump is that different in that respect.

Yeah, a LOT comes down to, "life time party voters" and a "both sides are doing the same thing/are corrupt" mindset.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Yeah, a LOT comes down to, "life time party voters" and a "both sides are doing the same thing/are corrupt" mindset.

yeah.... to many lazy, low information voters the belief they are much the same is a deep article of faith that doesn't require evidence. They really think they're being the voice of reason when they point it out...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Yes, we have a surprising number of actual fascists here. But many who will vote for Trump are just in complete denial of what he is. A lot of people in my family have been die hard republicans for most of their lives and just flat don't believe Trump is that different in that respect.

And that's the part that puzzles me. On the face of it, Trump has very little in common with traditional Republicans, or at least with what they claimed to be. Cynically one might suggest that that Republicans have long been the party of racism and low corporate taxation, and Trump has simply removed the window-dressing to concentrate on the party's unique selling points, but I don't think that can be the whole story.

 

[Archer]

And that's the part that puzzles me. On the face of it, Trump has very little in common with traditional Republicans, or at least with what they claimed to be. Cynically one might suggest that that Republicans have long been the party of racism and low corporate taxation, and Trump has simply removed the window-dressing to concentrate on the party's unique selling points, but I don't think that can be the whole story.

It's not the whole story, but it is an important aspect. There is the MAGA base, who for the most part are the rabid christo-fascists, proud boy, white supremacist types. Then there are the die hard Republicans, who vote party line no matter whose name is there. Those are the most baffling ones. They refuse to open their minds to the possibility that the current GOP is not the party of old. And they will go to their graves also refusing to ever vote for a Democrat. I honestly have no clue how to reach these folks and get them to even consider that times have changed.

 

[Myradyl Muse]

I hope I'm wrong, but from my perspective I'm still seeing an ongoing rush to false equivalencies between Trump/Maga and Biden/Democrats, by commentators and media. It was very evident in the reactions to this debate also. In fact, it was harsher on Biden from what I could read.
They are NOT equal in any sense of the word. This tendency to apply the 'let's all be fair and nice' doctrine to a fascist-salivating nominee and his sycophantic party is very dangerous IMHO.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

 

[Cindy Claveau]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It's not the whole story, but it is an important aspect. There is the MAGA base, who for the most part are the rabid christo-fascists, proud boy, white supremacist types. Then there are the die hard Republicans, who vote party line no matter whose name is there. Those are the most baffling ones. They refuse to open their minds to the possibility that the current GOP is not the party of old. And they will go to their graves also refusing to ever vote for a Democrat. I honestly have no clue how to reach these folks and get them to even consider that times have changed.

This seems to be one of the big differences between the US and UK at the moment. Our Conservative Party is, at least if the polls are anything like correct, about to suffer a landslide defeat if it's lucky, and complete obliteration if it's not. We'll know the outcome by the end of the week, but whatever happens the main reason it's in such a well-deserved predicament is that it's pretty much lost the trust and support of almost all the traditional coalition of conflicting political and financial interests on whom it used to be able to rely.

There's a whole number of reasons for this, which I may well explore in a different thread after the results are known, but, partly because of dissatisfaction with their record over the years, partly because of the incompetence, chaotic mismanagement, and corruption since 2019, and partly because the main opposition Labour Party, even if it doesn't fill people with enthusiasm, doesn't scare voters so much they'll vote for anyone simply to keep Labour out of power (which was one of the main considerations in 2019), traditional Conservatives seem to be planning to vote either Liberal Democrat or Reform in protest, depending on whether they're on the more liberal or more reactionary wings of the party, or to stay at home on Thursday.