2024 Presidential Debate

[Noodles]

Progressives do a good job of sounding obvious alarms, but an awful one of presenting alternatives that regular democrat people could actually push for. The reason "corporate democrats" are so conservative is because US voters are conservative. Progressives like to pretend that the democrats could be so much more left if they only really wanted to be... Democrats tend do best with exciting, young, charismatic candidates who are still bland centrists deep down. Biden is of course only one of those things.

I agree Biden is finished. I'm not sure there are any options without him stepping down NOW (EDIT: as a candidate) and even then the party has to pivot rapidly behind someone else. It's a long shot at this point. I think my personal choice is Newsom. I think he's step in well if the party leadership asked him to, but it would require Biden to step down; which he likely will refuse to do.

Yeah, the Dems want to cowtow to progressives, but don't have any interest in actually BEING progressive.

It's been like this for a while, it's infuriating.

I feel like the big issue with Biden stepping aside now, would be that it gives tons of ammo to the "Trump won" camp.

I hate all this so much.

Why the fuck, out of 300-400 million people, are these two useless fucks the only ones we can get on the ballots.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Yeah, the Dems want to cowtow to progressives, but don't have any interest in actually BEING progressive.

According to some polling data, progressives are only about 6% of the population. The Democrat party can't afford to be a lot more progressive than the American public actually is. I often see progressives implicitly overestimate their numbers and voting power. Meanwhile, swing voters are estimated to be around 15% of the population.

It's kind of useless to blame mainstream democrats for having to appeal to where most voters actually stand (though they are messing that up too).

11. Progressive Left

Members of the Progressive Left have very liberal views across a range of issues – including the size and scope of government, foreign policy, immigration and race.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Archer]

My opinion is that Biden will not step aside willingly. The only way he's not the candidate in November is if something (god forbid) happens to him physically.

As for who would step up, the obvious choice everybody is overlooking is Kamala Harris. She's been right there with Biden every step of the way and would not lose a beat to pick up the baton and run with it. Michele Obama does not want to be in politics AT ALL. There is no way she would agree to run. And unfortunately in both cases, we would still be screwed because if you think undecided voters are turning away from the old man, wait until you see how many folks you think are solid turn away from a black woman. Not only that, but you present a white alternative and you are going to lose a ton of the black vote. They are barely hanging in there as it is. Biden is our only hope to keep the fascists from winning and we need to do everything in our power to get him reelected. After that, Harris can step in if he can't complete his term.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Jeez. Even the big media outlets are jumping right to Biden stepping down. I don't see it. The debate wounded his campaign but we still have 6 months to go. I'm still voting Biden/Harris regardless. Trump is THE fabled disaster waiting to happen. News media is doing what they always do - not helping.

Obama had a bad debate too.

 

[Mona Eberhardt]

Progressives do a good job of sounding obvious alarms, but an awful one of presenting alternatives that regular democrat people could actually push for. The reason "corporate democrats" are so conservative is because US voters are conservative.

A leader's job is to lead, not follow.

Progressives like to pretend that the democrats could be so much more left if they only really wanted to be... Democrats tend do best with exciting, young, charismatic candidates who are still bland centrists deep down. Biden is of course only one of those things.

No, progressives are sick and tired of corporate lobbies dictating policies that harm people.

I agree Biden is finished. I'm not sure there are any options without him stepping down NOW (EDIT: as a candidate) and even then the party has to pivot rapidly behind someone else. It's a long shot at this point. I think my personal choice is Newsom. I think he's step in well if the party leadership asked him to, but it would require Biden to step down; which he likely will refuse to do.

Translation: he's too stubbornstupid to see he obliterated his own candidacy. Like Hillary, who was too stupid to see a lot of her "qualities" (like her admiration for war criminal Henry Kissinger, or the fact that she had no real argument to convince people to vote for her other than that "she's not Trump") cost her lots and lots of votes. Then again, their stupidity only equals that of their delusional campaign managers. It's like formerly-almost-far-left-that-turned-centre-left SYRIZA in Greece: all the polls showed that, despite the 2019-2023 Mitsotakis government's scandals and erosion of democracy and rule of law, they couldn't capitalise on them. They claimed the polls didn't reflect reality and that they were "fake". Guess what? In the 2023 elections (European and national), they lost by a landslide - Mitsotakis got 40.79%, SYRIZA got 20.07%, the conspiracy-peddling con artist Kyriakos Velopoulos gained extra seats, and two brand-new fascist parties [the neonazi "Spartans" - a spin-off of Golden Dawn - and the junta-loving, religious nutjobs of "NIKI" ("Victory")] emerged as very strong players.

The Democrats can pretend all they want; they can look down on the progressives (i.e. those who haven't sold themselves to corporations) all they want. The reality is simple, and it is always what the ballot shows. Also, historically, the adoption of conservative politics by ostensibly progressive parties has never worked: all it did was legitimise and bolster the conservatives and the far right, and help the far right gain extra votes. It's happened in the USA, it's happened in Greece, Germany, France, Italy, Poland, the UK, Denmark, Spain, Portugal - everywhere. Consistently and reliably.

 

[Beebo Brink]

A while ago, I warned that you all must brace for a second term of the Cheeto Nazi, and that it's all the corporate, establishment Democrats' fault, with their machinations against their progressive side, their bullying towards progressive voters....

Whatever you're smoking, it's probably illegal and it's definitely hallucinogenic.

Progressives can't win the presidential election. They are an irrelevant presence at the national level because the U.S. population is not interested in the progressive side of the political spectrum. FFS we're on the verge of becoming a fascist state, and that's because a large percentage of this country's population WANTS that.

Establishment Democrats are running the party because that's what the American people will support.

I wish that wasn't the case. I really do wish there was huge suppressed progressive faction of the population that would leap to the forefront if only they had a progressive leader! But that's not the reality. So put your pipe down and sober up.

 

[Lexxi]

The million dollar question is who? Who could replace him and have a snowball's chance of winning?

The only candidate who comes close to Biden in terms of name recognition and expertise would be Hillary Clinton. Do we really want to go there again? I'm not sure I do.

Name recognition? Meghan Markle was born in USA, is old enough to run, and has entered the political arena.

Meghan Markle and Prince Harry Wade Into Politics Ahead of the 2024 Election

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex are “working to prepare US voters for a possible deepfake onslaught” during the election year, according to reports.

www.glamour.com

Expertise? Oh. Right. Um.

Well, let's see. Popular Democrats. *looks at a list, sees names that won't work here (I looked at popularity, they also have name recognition)*
According to yougov, the only Democrats with a popularity rating over 50% are Jimmy Carter (61%), Barack Obama (59%), and Bernie Sanders (52%). That's based on opinions of "all adults".

Switching to Millennials, we get (over 50% popular): Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders, Jimmy Carter, Elizabeth Warren (56%; 47% overall), Bill Clinton, Pete Buttigieg (54%; 43% overall), Kamela Harris (54%; 47% overall), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (53%; 44% overall - wasn't going to mention her, but she will be old enough by January 2025), HiIlary Clinton (53%), Al Gore (52%), Beto O'Rourke (51%), John Kerry (51%)

GenX only like Jimmy Carter & Barack Obama (well, at more than 50%).

Baby Boomers like Carter & Obama, and add in Madeleine Albright (51%).

The most popular Democrats in America | Politics | YouGov Ratings

The most popular Democrats in America according to YouGov Ratings. Popularity is based on millions of responses from the American public and YouGov's innovative survey methodology.

today.yougov.com

Michele Obama is at 63% popular, with a name recognition of 98%. Disliked by 23% (have to switch to "Public figures" to get her stats; she's 3rd on Public Figures, behind Martin Luther King Jr, and Queen Elizabeth II).
Gavin Newsom is at 37% popular, with a name recognition of 76%. Disliked by 24%.
Megan Markle is at 37% popular, with a name recognition of 85%. Disliked by 22%.

Joe Biden is at 45% popular, with a name recognition of 98%. Disliked by 37%.
Donald Trump is at 43% popular, with a name recognition of 97%. Disliked by 43%.
RFK jr is at 43% popular, with a name recognition of 94%. Disliked by 25%.

 

[Govi]

Pete Buttigieg/Elizabeth Warren

 

[Beebo Brink]

The debate wounded his campaign but we still have 6 months to go. I'm still voting Biden/Harris regardless.

As I said before, the debate will not change OUR minds, as in those who already see Trump as existential threat to Democracy. Whether or not any of us vote FOR Biden, all of us are stridently voting AGAINST Trump. Nothing can change that. I'd vote for Biden's corpse over Trump. MAGA feel the same way about Trump. He could have had a public meltdown and his supporters would just wave it all away.

The problem was that mysterious group called Undecideds, who apparently haven't been paying attention or don't see a glaring difference between the candidates. That is the group of potential voters Biden had to win, and that didn't happen last night.

But yeah, we still have many months to go and who knows wtf will happen between now and then to take everyone's mind off the debate. It wouldn't be the first time some black swan event turned everything upside down.

 

[Soen Eber]

Maybe he just had a cold and was medicated up.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Maybe he just had a cold and was medicated up.

It doesn't matter why, what matters is the optics. The optics were horrible. People remember what they saw, and any attempts to explain it all away just sounds like so much spin, even if it's the truth.

 

[Cristiano]

The momentum is for Newsom, though he is a loyalist to Biden so unless Biden himself makes a move to step aside, Newsom will not undermine him.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

As one talking head noted, "Trump is being called "presidential" because he didn't set himself on fire." (Though he technically did and everybody was focused on Joe).

Biden, on the other hand, is being bombarded by all the doubters who've been waiting for their moment to ambush him. Some Dems because they never liked him, and others because they're too scared to stand on policy over image.

I'm looking forward to a lot of things before November. Biden stepping aside is not one of them.

(For the record, I was originally a Warren supporter before Biden won the nomination. Biden wasn't my second or third choice, but he has enabled a lot of good things while in office and is still light years better than the convicted narcissist.)

 

[Cindy Claveau]

'A dumpster fire': CNN hosts face blowback for letting Trump lie throughout debate

While there is a growing consensus that the first 2024 presidential debate between President Joe Biden and convicted felon Donald Trump was a disaster for the sitting president, there is also a faction of political observers who believe that the moderators of the debate fell down on the job.

In particular, there was a great deal of anger at CNN's Dana Bash and Jake Tapper over their failure to make Trump answer their questions and worse including allowing him to lie with impunity with no push-back or fact-checking.

As reported by the Washington Post's Jeremy Barr, the former president littered his answers with a flood of lies, yet the two CNN "State of the Union" hosts never stepped in to correct the record.

According to Barr, "Instead of fact-checking the candidates, Tapper and Bash focused mostly on keeping them within the time limits, stopping and starting and going back and forth between the candidates," before adding, "Even when Trump seemed to ignore a question about the opioid crisis by instead criticizing Biden’s economic policies, the moderators said nothing and allowed Trump to keep talking."

 

[Lexxi]

My post mentioned generations. Spotted some threads on Reddit presorted into generations.

 

[Soen Eber]

It doesn't matter why, what matters is the optics. The optics were horrible. People remember what they saw, and any attempts to explain it all away just sounds like so much spin, even if it's the truth.

If he come roaring back in the next debate(s) this will be mostly forgotten (hopefully).

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Progressives can't win the presidential election.

Not unless there is a major national crisis like the Great Depression or WW2, right?

They are an irrelevant presence at the national level because the U.S. population is not interested in the progressive side of the political spectrum. FFS we're on the verge of becoming a fascist state, and that's because a large percentage of this country's population WANTS that.

And yet Progressive causes like women's health, social security, gun rights etc have repeatedly proven to be wildly popular if the media doesn't start labeling stuff "progressive" as if this was the McCarthy era. To most of us progressives, it means that people come before policy - the reverse of what the Right wants. The rest of the words are just polemics.

Establishment Democrats are running the party because that's what the American people will support.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Not unless there is a major national crisis like the Great Depression or WW2, right?

FDR's election was a very different time and was of course before the McCarthy era propaganda. Democrats were more left before the red scare. It's too bad the electorate moved so far.

And yet Progressive causes like women's health, social security, gun rights etc have repeatedly proven to be wildly popular if the media doesn't start labeling stuff "progressive" as if this was the McCarthy era. To most of us progressives, it means that people come before policy - the reverse of what the Right wants. The rest of the words are just polemics.

People like progressive ideas, just not progressive politicians. My state for example (MO) has voted to expand Medicaid on 2 occasions only to have the GOP congressmen refuse to actually enact it. The real problem progressive democrats have isn't that their ideas are unpopular, it's that right wing propaganda is VERY strong in this country. It even taints a lot of what people outside the USA hear about us. That, and the religiousness of many Americans pulls them to the right.

...and not all progressive ideas are popular with our crazy right wing religious population. Or rather, many progressive ideas are not so popular with how right wing propaganda twists them. Common sense background checks for guns are popular, but outright banning them is very unpopular and that's what many Americans think progressives want. Leaving the LGBT+ community alone is popular, but right wing media has successfully pushed the lie that the left wants so much more than that...

I'm not really disagreeing with your core point, just saying the right wing propaganda machine is a hell of a beast to overcome.

 

[Noodles]

Pete Buttigieg/Elizabeth Warren

This was my first thought previously but I can't spell Buttiegegegge at all so I did not comment it.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Live: President Biden is campaigning in North Carolina and he is barnstorming like a champion. This is the Biden that should have showed up last night. Honestly, watching him now, I'm fully onboard with him as the presidential candidate. He's in top form and this is good stuff.

Last night stung, but damn. Go Joe!