Nobody Cares: PRS

Rose Karuna

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Horrible, some of these bad actors are stealing other peoples bees and working them until they die too. This is why in six months when I retire I'm attending a semester at our local agricultural school on bees and then I'm going to begin keeping hives. I don't care about the honey, I just want the bees to have a safe place to live out their lives as bees instead of slaves. :cry:
 

Innula Zenovka

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While I don't for one moment seek to minimise the suffering of Soviet citizens during WW2, or the USSR's heroic contribution to the defeat of Hitler, the fact remains that the Nazi-Soviet pact of 1939--1941, and the subsequent dismemberment of Poland, was a shameful piece of collaboration with Hitler and that Putin's attempts to rehabilitate Stalin are profoundly disturbing:


Putin's line that other countries enabled the Nazis too -- Britain at Munich -- is true as far as it goes, but the difference is that Chamberlain's betrayal of Czechoslovakia is not now regarded by the British government as something to celebrate and no one tries to justify it as a wise piece of statesmanship.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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An interesting and quite subtle analysis, I think:

The GirlsDoPorn site was a specific brand of pornography that markets itself as having models who are not professional sex workers, who would not ordinarily “do porn”. This is in fact the essence of its sales pitch: that its performers are not professionals with fair compensation and safe working conditions, but scared, naive, manipulated people in a situation they would not have chosen for themselves. In that sense, the defendants were doing exactly what they told their viewers they were doing: tricking and humiliating women for men’s titillation.

Second-wave feminists who opposed pornography wrote that the industry commodified sex, and they were right, but the commodification of sex is something that is arguably done any time sex is used to sell any product. What I think is unsettling about pornography like GDP is that it is not merely commodifying or “selling” sex. It aims additionally to sell women’s humiliation and fear. It is this fear, more than the sex per se, that the GDP audience was paying to see.

One wonders if men who are so erotically invested in women’s humiliation and pain of the GDP type don’t see how they’re missing out on a better, freer kind of sex. A sexuality that is so focused on degrading women forecloses many more erotic possibilities than it enables.
 

Beebo Brink

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An interesting and quite subtle analysis, I think:
Agreed, except for this one glib statement:
One wonders if men who are so erotically invested in women’s humiliation and pain of the GDP type don’t see how they’re missing out on a better, freer kind of sex. A sexuality that is so focused on degrading women forecloses many more erotic possibilities than it enables.
Erotic triggers are not choices that adult men can consciously select or discard based on social politics and ethics. This statement reeks of condescension and misses the depth of the psychological/sexual issues we're grappling with as a society.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Agreed, except for this one glib statement:

Erotic triggers are not choices that adult men can consciously select or discard based on social politics and ethics. This statement reeks of condescension and misses the depth of the psychological/sexual issues we're grappling with as a society.
I'm really never sure how best to understand the relationships between psychological/sexual issues and society since they're both so obviously highly individual and socially constructed.

That is, erotic triggers are both socially constructed and intensely personal -- we can all recognise the same erotic tropes and stimuli, since we're bombarded with them throughout our lives, but what turns me on is going to leave someone else cold, and vice versa.

Also, while it's certainly true that "Erotic triggers are not choices that adult men can consciously select or discard based on social politics and ethics," in that we (male or female) can't consciously decide what turns us on and what doesn't, we nevertheless retain the ability to decide whether or not to act on those triggers and whether to seek them out or avoid them.

To take an extreme example, I'm sure no one makes an active choice to be sexually excited by images of children being sexually assaulted, but nevertheless we quite rightly expect people who are excited by such images to refrain from seeking them out, and visit very severe penalties on them if they ignore this prohibition.

Similarly, to take a less extreme example, while a man might find the idea of visiting a lap dance club, massage parlour, or brothel attractive on one level, he might nevertheless decide to refrain from visiting one whether because of general ethical or political reasons or because he knows his partner would be hurt if he did.

Or do I miss the point?
 

Beebo Brink

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...we nevertheless retain the ability to decide whether or not to act on those triggers and whether to seek them out or avoid them.
And how well has that worked out for us so far?

I'm not arguing that humans completely lack free will, just that relying on self-control hasn't been all that successful in curbing the human appetite for food or sex. We're much better at creating rationalizations to persuade ourselves that these transgressions are somehow "okay" than we are at just not doing them.

We're caught in a cycle where misogyny permeates our culture, which imprints these injurious views of women in men's sexual response, and that response drives continuous exploitation which leads to imprinting the next generation. I have no idea how we break the cycle, but it would be more effective to prevent these sexual patterns in the first place.
 

OrinB

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And how well has that worked out for us so far?

I'm not arguing that humans completely lack free will, just that relying on self-control hasn't been all that successful in curbing the human appetite for food or sex. We're much better at creating rationalizations to persuade ourselves that these transgressions are somehow "okay" than we are at just not doing them.
More likely because some don't even want to change and don't want to see the damage their appetite for their "fix" is causing others. Therefore the cycle becomes learnt behaviour and normative.
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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And how well has that worked out for us so far?

I'm not arguing that humans completely lack free will, just that relying on self-control hasn't been all that successful in curbing the human appetite for food or sex. We're much better at creating rationalizations to persuade ourselves that these transgressions are somehow "okay" than we are at just not doing them.

We're caught in a cycle where misogyny permeates our culture, which imprints these injurious views of women in men's sexual response, and that response drives continuous exploitation which leads to imprinting the next generation. I have no idea how we break the cycle, but it would be more effective to prevent these sexual patterns in the first place.
And in the case of someone attracted to children, if they even ask for help there's a brigade of people ready to scream Off With Their Head.
 

Innula Zenovka

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And how well has that worked out for us so far?

I'm not arguing that humans completely lack free will, just that relying on self-control hasn't been all that successful in curbing the human appetite for food or sex. We're much better at creating rationalizations to persuade ourselves that these transgressions are somehow "okay" than we are at just not doing them.

We're caught in a cycle where misogyny permeates our culture, which imprints these injurious views of women in men's sexual response, and that response drives continuous exploitation which leads to imprinting the next generation. I have no idea how we break the cycle, but it would be more effective to prevent these sexual patterns in the first place.
Thanks. I see what you mean now.

In this sort of context, I'm far more interested in regulating behaviour that needs regulation rather than behaviour of which I might disapprove for whatever reason, so in this example I'm interested in how to protect women from being tricked into this sort of exploitation, and in getting such material taken down when the actors and models complain, than am I in persuading men not to use the sites.

However, having said that, I think that it clearly is possible to change people's ideas of what's acceptable and what isn't. You and I are of an age, I think, and we've both seen huge changes over the years in what sort of behaviour is considered generally acceptable, be it towards women, or members of various minority groups, or drinking and driving, or smoking in public places, or recycling and energy conservation.

That's one reason why Trump now seems to be such a monster -- things have changed a lot since the 1970s, even though he (and many of his supporters) clearly haven't realised that yet.
 
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Zaida Gearbox

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I think part of the problem is the things Beebo mentioned, but also that women accept/tolerate those behaviors. Case in point - my mother (born 1951) firmly believes that sexual abuse is just part of growing up female. Where did she come by that belief? I don't know. Add into that that, even now, many women believe they NEED a man - and you get women putting up with behaviors that they really shouldn't. If we stopped putting up with those behaviors - for awhile there'd be a lot more single women and a sharp decline in the birth rate - but those behaviors would change.
 

Brenda Archer

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I think part of the problem is the things Beebo mentioned, but also that women accept/tolerate those behaviors. Case in point - my mother (born 1951) firmly believes that sexual abuse is just part of growing up female. Where did she come by that belief? I don't know. Add into that that, even now, many women believe they NEED a man - and you get women putting up with behaviors that they really shouldn't. If we stopped putting up with those behaviors - for awhile there'd be a lot more single women and a sharp decline in the birth rate - but those behaviors would change.
Nobody really enforced protection of children even in the Sixties, and it’s very imperfect now.

But enough people have changed their minds about child abuse that at least in public, prominent people have to say they’re opposed to it. (I’m very aware that attitude is not as common in private.)

There’s a point where public pressure starts to make a difference.

The 25% Revolution—How Big Does a Minority Have to Be to Reshape Society?

It seems to me the culture war is worth fighting, just from the drastic improvements between the Sixties, which I can remember, and now.

Women do have some power - the falling birthrate, higher divorce rate, and the shelter movement all come, in part, from an unwillingness to put up with abuse. Changes in family law and medical practice come from it, too. So does our willingness to have this conversation.

I don’t think people, including men, are without free will. For one thing, the less extreme kinks can all be indulged with a willing partner if one is willing to make an effort and adhere to an ethic such as BDSM SSC. There must be another percentage of people who have enough empathy to avoid doing harm, even if it requires abstinence from something. The few who really have no self control sometimes get locked up.

The larger problem is a society structured with power imbalances that make it possible for some people to violently exploit others. I don’t think enough people have really written off violence and exploitation. They’ve only narrowed the definitions of who they’re allowed to do it to. The extreme Right in particular seems to be all about getting permission to get to abuse or exploit someone. That’s what the most traditional type of marriage was, in the hands of someone with no empathy.

Society is collectively climbing out of something that looks like mass NPD. A lot of abuse of “inferiors” was sanctioned. When we stop sanctioning it now, we can expect to get yelled at for undermining authority and being politically incorrect.

Unfortunately, so many women are patriarchal that I don’t see this as a pure gender issue. I see it as ethical failure.

Going back to Beebo’s original post, I wouldn’t lump together food abuse with people abuse, unless the point is to advocate for veganism (which I don’t). Eating disorders are often related to trauma, and overeating can be triggered by trying to overcome the hypoglycemia part of the blood sugar imbalance in metabolic disorders. These are medical and psychological issues that need treatment. I don’t think they’re a character problem in the same way as abuse.
 

Beebo Brink

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Going back to Beebo’s original post, I wouldn’t lump together food abuse with people abuse...
My point was more basic than that. Bodily urges are among the most difficult to control. Sheer will power works up to a point, but usually not for the long-term. "Just say no" has never been an effective strategy for coping with donuts or illicit sexual urges. Paraphilias are difficult to extinguish, so I found the article's writers scolding tone a bit naïve, but her comment about men missing a "better, freer kind of sex" was especially condescending. Someone dictating what other people "should" enjoy always pisses me off.
 
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Kamilah Hauptmann

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Society is collectively climbing out of something that looks like mass NPD. A lot of abuse of “inferiors” was sanctioned. When we stop sanctioning it now, we can expect to get yelled at for undermining authority and being politically incorrect.

Unfortunately, so many women are patriarchal that I don’t see this as a pure gender issue. I see it as ethical failure.

Going back to Beebo’s original post, I wouldn’t lump together food abuse with people abuse, unless the point is to advocate for veganism (which I don’t). Eating disorders are often related to trauma, and overeating can be triggered by trying to overcome the hypoglycemia part of the blood sugar imbalance in metabolic disorders. These are medical and psychological issues that need treatment. I don’t think they’re a character problem in the same way as abuse.
Misc thread in support:

 

Brenda Archer

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My point was more basic than that. Bodily urges are among the most difficult to control. Sheer will power works up to a point, but usually not for the long-term. "Just say no" has never been an effective strategy for coping with donuts or illicit sexual urges. Paraphilias are difficult to extinguish, so I found the article's writers scolding tone a bit naïve, but her comment about men missing a "better, freer kind of sex" was especially condescending. Someone dictating what other people "should" enjoy always pisses me off.
Surely you don’t mean to excuse nonconsent as a kink?

I don’t mean roleplayed nonconsent or edgeplay under frameworks thought out in advance like SSC or RACK. I mean genuine, coercive nonconsent.
 
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Brenda Archer

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Misc thread in support:


Thanks, I agree. We are in a moment of ethical change. Even partial change is better than no change, but I think there’s more ahead we can’t see yet. I don’t think many people thought we’d be here 50 years ago, or how much of the world is working on it.