2020 U.S. Presidential elections

[Grandma Bates]

Those back bench details gave Trump the authority to use the military as an occupying force on American soil. Biden is directly responsible for that. He openly brags about it. Your vote for him is a direct endorsement of the federal actions in Portland.

If you want to be a fascist, at least don't be in denial about it.

Also, telling me I'm voting for Trump because I refuse to vote for somebody who refuses to earn votes honestly is completely insane. It does not follow, at all. I vote for good things. You should, too.

I agree that Biden is problematic with respect to the criminal justice system. That is not the case, though, with respect to the current situation and police actions. He was part of the administration that put in place the consent agreements that curtailed abuse by law enforcement personnel. The unrest we see now is a direct result of the current administration's abandonment of those restrictions. It is also a result of the power of police unions at the local level to insure that basic human dignities are ignored by their officers.

With respect to voting Libertarian, I am not a fan of the propensity to tell people they should vote for someone they do not like. On the contrary, people should vote for who they support, and the problem is not people voting third party but those who do not vote. Having said that, the US Libertarian Party treats the libertarian idea as a smorgasbord of policies they pick and choose without much thought to their self-contradictions. There is no recognition of the notion of the trade-offs between how individual liberties for some can detract from the liberties of others. Their focus is on the removal of the ability to insure the same liberties are enjoyed by all with the result that liberty is something that is available to those with the power to take it. The result is that they are libertarian in name only.

 

[Free]

We all know this, but a textual reminder every now and then doesn't hurt.

Beware of a Cornered Trump

The closer defeat looms, the more deranged his administration will become.

washingtonmonthly.com

 

[Zaida Gearbox]

Well the Libertarians need to come collect signatures in my neighborhood because there's actually some yard signs for Jorgenson around here.

As for a vote for Jorgenson being a vote for Trump - fuck that and fuck you. Most of the people who are planning to vote Libertarian this time are people who would normally vote Republican, so voting Libertarian hurts Trump not Biden. Also telling people they MUST vote a certain way is what they do in dictatorships. So, once again, fuck that and fuck you.

 

[Sid]

I personally think, that special times need special action.
Every non blue vote can help Trumpty Dumpty. And that is the whole story about first around the post.

A non blue vote, when you want to get rid of the Orange Genius, is a tricky vote, especially in swing states like Pennsylvania.
Hey, I didn't invent nor apply the American voting system. But that is what it is.

Of course everybody can vote or not on whom they want.
But sometimes it is better to vote strategically IMHO.

And: If you are willing to take that risk by trowing willingly your vote away, please stop whining about 45.
I normally vote SP (socialist party) in my country, the most far left one. But there are elections when I vote otherwise, because a vote on the SP means almost certainly a vote for a party in the opposition. If I want a certain party to be stronger in the coalition, I step over my own shadow and don't vote for my first choise.
It is all about being realistic about where your party/candidate stands.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Not to mention, we really do need to not just defeat Twitler, but utterly crush the republicans - so that maybe, if they manage to stick around, they never, ever, again back someone like this excrement....

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Not to mention, we really do need to not just defeat Twitler, but utterly crush the republicans - so that maybe, if they manage to stick around, they never, ever, again back someone like this excrement....

Demolish, utterly, then let the Democratic Party split into its relatively sane progressive and moderate conservative parts. Trying to do the split before the demolition of MAGAland will result in a SCOTUS consisting entirely of Kavanaughs and a constitutional convention from the bowels of Hell.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Those back bench details gave Trump the authority to use the military as an occupying force on American soil. Biden is directly responsible for that. He openly brags about it. Your vote for him is a direct endorsement of the federal actions in Portland.

This is bullshit. Biden is not perfect, nobody's claiming that. But it's also VERY important to include context in your denunciation of him. Any vote in the Senate, EVER, has involved compromises as well as tweaks to a bill in order to gain votes for passage. A guy like Biden, who has been in politics since 1973, has not only had to engage in compromise to succeed, but his position on a lot of issues has evolved with the times. I'm saying that every vote must be looked at in a wider context and not just cherry-picked because you happen to not like the candidate.

If you want to be a fascist, at least don't be in denial about it.

That's uncalled for. Biden is as far away from being a "fascist" as Trump IS a fascist. We judge both of them by their current and most recent behavior. Right now, the only candidate with any prayer of kicking Trump out is Biden. But not if people are going to get squeamish about something he may/may not have done 10 or 20 years ago. And not if people with an agenda want to get squeamish because he did something you don't agree with. He also opposed the 1991 Gulf War and voted to intervene against the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia in 1999. He's against capital punishment and voted for the Equal Protection of Voting Rights Act of 2001.


From Wiki:

Biden has been described as center-left[5] and has described himself as such.[6] His policies emphasize the needs of middle-class and working-class Americans[7] and have drawn political support from those groups.[8]

Biden has supported campaign finance reform including the McCain-Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act and banning contributions of issue ads and gifts;[9] the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act;[10] the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009;[11][12] tax credits for students;[13] carbon emissions cap and trade;[14] the increased infrastructure spending proposed by the Obama administration;[12] mass transit, supporting Amtrak, bus, and subway subsidies for decades;[15] renewable energy subsidies;[14] student loan forgiveness;[16] and reversals of Republican tax cuts for the wealthy.[7][17] He supports building upon the Affordable Care Act through establishment of a public health insurance option allowing Americans to buy into Medicare, as opposed to establishing a "Medicare for All" (single payer) system.[18][19] He supports decriminalizing cannabis on a federal level and supports a state's right to legalize it on a state level,[20] and prefers the reduced military spending proposed in the Obama administration's fiscal year 2014 budget.[21][22] Biden has been publicly in favor of recognition of same-sex marriage since 2012 when he became the highest-ranking U.S. official to voice support for same-sex marriage, preempting Obama on the subject.[23] He supports abortion rights.[24]

Here's his voting record since 2007, too: https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/53279/joe-biden-jr/?p=5

I'm not claiming you are out of line. Obviously you have strong opinions just like everybody else on this board. But I think there is a dividing line between legitimate objections to a candidate and cherry-picking just to claim you're right. I voted for Warren in the Dem primary and Bernie back in '16. But when the process eliminates my favorites, I'm willing to adapt to the current leader if for no other reason than to help my party succeed. Right now, I think Biden will make a decent President and has stated his top priority is to "heal the soul" of America. To me, that includes undoing the damage Trump has inflicted. Nothing else matters in comparison, IMO.

If we don't do everything in our power to oust the Cheeto Idiot, another 4 years of his insanity will inflict even more permanent damage on our democracy, our economy, and the most vulnerable among us. That's the choice we're making. The trivial details DO NOT MATTER.

But, sure, do whatever you want. It *IS* still a free country.

 

[Isabeau]

Those back bench details gave Trump the authority to use the military as an occupying force on American soil. Biden is directly responsible for that. He openly brags about it. Your vote for him is a direct endorsement of the federal actions in Portland.

If you want to be a fascist, at least don't be in denial about it.

Also, telling me I'm voting for Trump because I refuse to vote for somebody who refuses to earn votes honestly is completely insane. It does not follow, at all. I vote for good things. You should, too.

Most Libertarian votes will come from the republican camp, no? So, who cares honestly. You can’t claim to be against fascist types and vote for these weirdos, but do you.

Yes, I understand how frustrating it must be to look back and see how the dem party has failed over the years (partly responsable for the present situation) but they’re partly responsible to the extent that many people involved in both (all) parties, and who vote for these parties are responsible for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Isn’t that what democracy is? You can’t only look at past mistakes without also looking back at triumphs.

Change in politics/law is slow (frustrates me to no end between elections) but when it comes to voting, you do so hoping all the push in ‘between’ the elections influences the party to turn the ship “your” way (look at dem-progressives, Warren, Bernie, etc.)

Using your vote to influence the ship NOW isn’t really effective, especially in US elections, no?

 

[Romana]

Not to mention, we really do need to not just defeat Twitler, but utterly crush the republicans - so that maybe, if they manage to stick around, they never, ever, again back someone like this excrement....

That's what the 'conscience' voters are missing.
Dump just indicated his intent not to acknowledge the results, and that's why it matters, as has what been stated, that every vote that Biden gets is important. The more of a landslide it is, the less valid argument Dump has.
Any antibody that's going to call me names for caring more about getting rid of Dump then anything Biden did 40 years ah they don't liked can go sit on a

 

[Lexxi]

Did anyone actually think Kanye was serious?

I would love nothing more for there to be a serious upset and one of the 3rd party candidates to take it....

https://www.newsweek.com/libertarian-green-party-candidates-are-making-surprising-appearances-2020-election-polls-1519464?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2G7yOIqFES3GhwzhyrQQfY0M_Ns2fEGfwBfgBzSVGnuixmXR8sHVOoWG4#Echobox=1595357852

From the article:

The Libertarian candidate told Newsweek that she doesn't see a big difference between President Donald Trump, the incumbent Republican, and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden.

. Well, that statement would mean I'd never vote for Jo Jorgensen. Though the 'Libertarian' part would have been the first thing that would have made me highly unlikely to vote for them. Third "the party is opposed to government-mandated mask orders such as the one imposed by Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings.' (so said party chair Nicholas Sarwark; I couldn't find a statement, pro/con/neutral about masks from Jorgensen).

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

The time to rebel against the democrat establishment is during the primary. Not voting for Biden at this point is just increasing the likelihood of 4 more years of Trump... I've never seen a decent, informed argument that denies Trump is worse than Biden in every respect.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I can't see who is arguing pro-Libertarian, but I'm not even caring about what the orange excrement thinks - I think we need to send the message to the GOP that we're not going to tolerate this BS. I mean, if enough people go out to vote for Biden then they might also vote for every other Dem candidate on principle. Get them -all- out.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

The Lincoln Project is trying to save the Republican Party from itself

He [Stuart Stevens] calls the GOP “a white grievance party,” and writes that “there is an ugly history of code words and dog whistles in the party.” The rest of the Republican platform he dismisses as a convenient fiction: “How do you abandon deeply held beliefs about character, personal responsibility, foreign policy, and the national debt in a matter of months? You don’t. The obvious answer is those beliefs weren’t deeply held.… t had always been about power. The rest? The principles? The values? It was all a lie.”

Stevens is particularly scathing about all the Republican politicians — many of them his clients — who have made common cause with Trump. “The most distinguishing characteristic of the current national Republican Party is cowardice,” he writes. “The base price of admission is a willingness to accept that an unstable, pathological liar leads it and pretend otherwise.”

 

[Pancake]

Most Libertarian votes will come from the republican camp, no? So, who cares honestly. You can’t claim to be against fascist types and vote for these weirdos, but do you.

Yes, I understand how frustrating it must be to look back and see how the dem party has failed over the years (partly responsable for the present situation) but they’re partly responsible to the extent that many people involved in both (all) parties, and who vote for these parties are responsible for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Isn’t that what democracy is? You can’t only look at past mistakes without also looking back at triumphs.

Change in politics/law is slow (frustrates me to no end between elections) but when it comes to voting, you do so hoping all the push in ‘between’ the elections influences the party to turn the ship “your” way (look at dem-progressives, Warren, Bernie, etc.)

Using your vote to influence the ship NOW isn’t really effective, especially in US elections, no?

Quebec is genius in it's use of strategic voting to achieve long term objectives, provincially and federally. The country often turns on who Quebec thinks needs a time out to clean house, or the tsunami they see in the future and put in motion with a single wave, and I mean that as a compliment.

Y'all should listen to Isabeau.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

‘The sleepers are waking up’: hope for Democrats in city that backed Trump

President Trump’s re-election plan had relied on bringing jobs back to cities like Erie, Pennsylvania, which has had its hopes of economic resurgence rocked by the pandemic

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cristalle]

This is bullshit. Biden is not perfect, nobody's claiming that. But it's also VERY important to include context in your denunciation of him. Any vote in the Senate, EVER, has involved compromises as well as tweaks to a bill in order to gain votes for passage. A guy like Biden, who has been in politics since 1973, has not only had to engage in compromise to succeed, but his position on a lot of issues has evolved with the times. I'm saying that every vote must be looked at in a wider context and not just cherry-picked because you happen to not like the candidate.

Both sidesism is tiring, Cindy. Biden bragged about writing the Patriot Act that enables the fascist tactics like indefinite detention and the creation of DHS, that waste of money that is terrorizing Portland right now.

Justin Amash Slams Joe Biden For Bragging About His Role In Writing The Patriot Act

Justin Amash Slams Joe Biden For Bragging About His Role In Writing The Patriot Act

www.inquisitr.com

The Many Occasions Joe Biden Took Credit For Writing The Patriot Act

Biden has repeatedly claimed that a bill he wrote in 1994 was essentially the same as the 2001 Patriot Act.

www.buzzfeednews.com

On another occasion in 2002, when the FBI director was testifying before Congress, Biden said not only that he wrote the 1994 act, but Attorney General John Ashcroft called him to say it was basically the same as the bill they were introducing.
"Civil libertarians were opposed to it," Biden said. "Right after 1994, and you can ask the attorney general this, because I got a call when he introduced the Patriot Act. He said, 'Joe, I'm introducing the act basically as you wrote it in 1994.'"

Obama signed the indefinite detention:

President Obama Signs Indefinite Detention Bill Into Law | American Civil Liberties Union

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE...

www.aclu.org

And Pelosi, sua sponte, threw Patriot Act renewal into a must-pass bill.

Why the Hell Did Democrats Just Extend the Patriot Act?

House leadership included the measure in a government funding bill—and even members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus went along with it.

newrepublic.com

There's context. If Trump was so fucking dangerous, why do they keep giving him everything he wants with DHS and the military? They've passed every military budget, including money that the Pentagon didn't even ask for. And what, just a couple of days ago passed the Homeland Security budget in their appropriations bill.

It's called Resistance Theater. If not, it's some really pathetic ass learned helplessness.

That's uncalled for. Biden is as far away from being a "fascist" as Trump IS a fascist. We judge both of them by their current and most recent behavior. Right now, the only candidate with any prayer of kicking Trump out is Biden. But not if people are going to get squeamish about something he may/may not have done 10 or 20 years ago. And not if people with an agenda want to get squeamish because he did something you don't agree with. He also opposed the 1991 Gulf War and voted to intervene against the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia in 1999. He's against capital punishment and voted for the Equal Protection of Voting Rights Act of 2001.


From Wiki:



Here's his voting record since 2007, too: https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/53279/joe-biden-jr/?p=5

I'm not claiming you are out of line. Obviously you have strong opinions just like everybody else on this board. But I think there is a dividing line between legitimate objections to a candidate and cherry-picking just to claim you're right. I voted for Warren in the Dem primary and Bernie back in '16. But when the process eliminates my favorites, I'm willing to adapt to the current leader if for no other reason than to help my party succeed. Right now, I think Biden will make a decent President and has stated his top priority is to "heal the soul" of America. To me, that includes undoing the damage Trump has inflicted. Nothing else matters in comparison, IMO.

If we don't do everything in our power to oust the Cheeto Idiot, another 4 years of his insanity will inflict even more permanent damage on our democracy, our economy, and the most vulnerable among us. That's the choice we're making. The trivial details DO NOT MATTER.

But, sure, do whatever you want. It *IS* still a free country.

Biden's record is checkered but better than Trump. Sadly, that's a pretty fucking low bar to clear. People had better not think that things will be magically better with Trump gone. All the pathologies that brought us Trump are still present and Biden is no visionary, and has no taste for transformation. He just wants to put band-aids over bullet holes to return to the veneer of "normal." People are going to have to stay in the streets or start a wave of strikes to get anything done.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Both sidesism is tiring, Cindy.

From where I sit, it's no more tiring than "but Bidenism". I would agree that the Dems have a problem finding someone who can inspire and lead as well as Obama did, but c'mon. We have what we have, and Obama II isn't coming through that door.

Biden bragged about writing the Patriot Act that enables the fascist tactics like indefinite detention and the creation of DHS, that waste of money that is terrorizing Portland right now.

Now you're stretching it and THAT is tiring too. Biden did not put BP agents on the streets of Portland. He's also not a fascist. He's not the progressive I want, but again. We have what we have. I just think you're being too hard on Joe. Everybody evolves. Personally, I've gone from being a moderate semi-conservative in the 90s to a "radical leftist" progressive today, just as an example.

NPR: Joe Biden Has Come A Long Way On Criminal Justice Reform.

Biden has called for a federal ban on police chokeholds, a new federal police oversight commission, new national standards for when and how police use force, more mandatory data collection from local law enforcement, and more power for the Department of Justice to investigate local police departments, among other changes.

There's context. If Trump was so fucking dangerous, why do they keep giving him everything he wants with DHS and the military?

That's not quite all the context we need to be so roundly condemnatory. Yes, Trump IS so fucking dangerous - possibly the most dangerous President we've ever had in our history. But Neither Biden nor Obama nor Hillary has been in office during Trump's reign of stupidity. "THEY" didn''t give him shit - that would be his lackeys in the Senate. And before that, there was a general trend after 9/11 to militarize our police in the 90s because FEAR. Have they stopped gifting armored personnel carriers to city cops yet?

They've passed every military budget, including money that the Pentagon didn't even ask for. And what, just a couple of days ago passed the Homeland Security budget in their appropriations bill.

I should remind you that the Repubs took control of Congress in 2014. Obama even had to water down his ACA just to get it passed. As I said earlier, being a politician requires compromises - some of them distasteful - in order to achieve larger objectives. That's reality. I'd dearly love to have an all-blue Congress in session during Biden's hoped-for Presidency. Maybe then none of them would have to compromise as much and we could finally get our Socialist Paradise . Things still won't be perfect, though. I never expect them to be.

Biden's record is checkered but better than Trump. Sadly, that's a pretty fucking low bar to clear.

We should feel fortunate that the bar is this low. Note that all we have to do right now to lower Trump's poll numbers is "let him talk".

People had better not think that things will be magically better with Trump gone. All the pathologies that brought us Trump are still present and Biden is no visionary, and has no taste for transformation.

No, he's not a visionary. But we're the Walking Wounded nation right now. We need a steady hand who can unite factions more than we need a fire-breathing orator. (It'd be nice to have one, but again - beggars can't choose). Biden's branding his campaign as one of healing, which is precisely what is needed with all the animostiy and division we see.

There is no magic bullet. There never is. And there aren't any superheroes who are going to fly in and save everybody. The pathologies you mention are going to require generations to mend, but for now we need normalcy and steadiness - a President who doesn't lie constantly, fire people with tweets or taunt our allies and chase them away. I'm relying on the people Biden will pick for his administration to do all the gritty, hard work required to undo the Trump damage. Joe is our ticket to get there, like him or not. He's the vehicle, not the thing itself.

 

[Pamela]

Biden is exactly what we need. I didn’t vote for him but now think we could not have chosen a better coalition leader. He is the opposite of Trump in every way.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

So, my spouse and I were discussing this last night and he was saying that DHS needs to go, ICE needs to go and that the Patriot act needs to go, and I said that yes, and all three were done by Republicans, even if Dems didn't get rid of them... and he thought ICE was Dem, and well.... nope.

Things we need to remember when voting ever again. That all of the attempts to remove our civil liberties, its not the Dems doing it.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Both sidesism is tiring, Cindy. Biden bragged about writing the Patriot Act that enables the fascist tactics like indefinite detention and the creation of DHS, that waste of money that is terrorizing Portland right now.

Justin Amash Slams Joe Biden For Bragging About His Role In Writing The Patriot Act

Justin Amash Slams Joe Biden For Bragging About His Role In Writing The Patriot Act

www.inquisitr.com

The Many Occasions Joe Biden Took Credit For Writing The Patriot Act

Biden has repeatedly claimed that a bill he wrote in 1994 was essentially the same as the 2001 Patriot Act.

www.buzzfeednews.com

Obama signed the indefinite detention:

President Obama Signs Indefinite Detention Bill Into Law | American Civil Liberties Union

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE...

www.aclu.org

And Pelosi, sua sponte, threw Patriot Act renewal into a must-pass bill.

Why the Hell Did Democrats Just Extend the Patriot Act?

House leadership included the measure in a government funding bill—and even members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus went along with it.

newrepublic.com

There's context. If Trump was so fucking dangerous, why do they keep giving him everything he wants with DHS and the military? They've passed every military budget, including money that the Pentagon didn't even ask for. And what, just a couple of days ago passed the Homeland Security budget in their appropriations bill.

It's called Resistance Theater. If not, it's some really pathetic ass learned helplessness.




Biden's record is checkered but better than Trump. Sadly, that's a pretty fucking low bar to clear. People had better not think that things will be magically better with Trump gone. All the pathologies that brought us Trump are still present and Biden is no visionary, and has no taste for transformation. He just wants to put band-aids over bullet holes to return to the veneer of "normal." People are going to have to stay in the streets or start a wave of strikes to get anything done.

Seems to me that the question is pretty simple -- given that the next POTUS will either be Trump or Biden, which do you want as POTUS for the next 4 years?

To my mind, if you don't want Trump, then it follows that you should campaign/vote for Biden.

You can campaign against specific policies he tries to enact after he's won and you know what policy you're trying to stop/change, but the time for that is after he's won, not before.

It's maybe not your preferred choice of options, but it's the only one on offer.