The Russia-Ukraine War has begun

[Veritable Quandry]

EU integration should streamline movement of refugees and help the rebuilding of Ukraine's economy and infrastructure. I don't think anyone is considering military intervention.

 

[Sid]

EU integration should streamline movement of refugees and help the rebuilding of Ukraine's economy and infrastructure. I don't think anyone is considering military intervention.

Ukraine is so much not what the EU is.
We have integrated a few former East block countries already for only political reasons to get them out of the claws of the Russian influence.
But as a community we pay a heavy price for that. Some relative newcomers are hardly democracies as the rest of the EU understands it. We really don't need another one.
The Ukraine is politically, cultural and economical so much not where the EU tries to stand for. There are a lot of full blown fascists in that country.

Yes, we need to support them as much as possible. But for the rest, they will have to evolve to a stable democracy before we allow them to fully integrate.

And as long as Russia is fighting there, a membership should be totally out of the question.
IMHO it cant be integrated into the EU and under siege by Russia at the same time without the EU countries going to war against Russia to free the territory. And that is only worsening things, not a part of the solution.

 

[Free]

 

[Free]

Sure, why not. We can all be prepared for future events...

To help Ukraine, Google rolls out “Air Raid Alerts” system for Android

Google is building a client into the OS for the government's air raid alert system.

arstechnica.com

 

[Chin Rey]

The Ukraine is politically, cultural and economical so much not where the EU tries to stand for.

One example of this is the level of democracy. Here are the rankings of Ukraine and EU and EFTA countries on the EIU democracy index (Liechtenstein is missing because the index does not include microstates):

Rank	Country	Score	Comments
1​	Norway​	9.75​	​
3​	Finland​	9.27​	​
4​	Sweden​	9.26​	​
5​	Iceland​	9.18​	​
6​	Denmark​	9.09​	​
7​	Ireland​	9​	​
9​	Switzerland​	8.9​	(Tied with Australia)​
11​	Netherlands​	8.88​	​
14​	Luxembourg​	8.68​	​
15​	Germany​	8.67​	​
20​	Austria​	8.07​	(Tied with Costa Rica)​
22​	France​	7.99​	​
24​	Spain​	7.94​	​
27​	Estonia​	7.84​	​
28​	Portugal​	7.82​	​
29​	Czech Republic​	7.74​	​
31​	Italy​	7.68​	​
33​	Malta​	7.57​	​
34​	Greece​	7.56​	​
35​	Slovenia​	7.54​	​
36​	Belgium​	7.51​	​
37​	Cyprus​	7.43​	​
38​	Latvia​	7.31​	​
40​	Lithuania​	7.18​	​
45​	Slovakia​	7.03​	​
51​	Poland​	6.8​	​
53​	Bulgaria​	6.64​	​
56​	Croatia​	6.5​	(Triple tie with Hungary and Ghana)​
56​	Hungary​	6.5​	(Triple tie with Croatia and Ghana)​
61​	Romania​	6.43​	​
86​	Ukraine​	5.57​	​

A score between 8 and 10 is defined as a "full democracy"
6-7.99 is a "flawed democracy"
4-5.99 is a "hybrid regime"
Below 4 is "authoritarian"

When it comes to economy, Bulgaria is the EU nation with the lowest GDP per capita, only USD 22.384. It's still almost twice as high as Ukraine's 12.377.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Where's Russia and United Kingdom?

 

[Chin Rey]

Where's Russia and United Kingdom?

You mean on the democracy index? I didn't include them because they're not relevant to the Ukraine-Eu cultural difference Sid mentioned but Russia is no. 124 on the list with a score of 3.24
The UK is actually as high as no. 18 with a score of 8.10 but we may take that with a grain of salt. EIU is an English institution and although seems to be fairly objective for the most part, it does seem to have a tendency to give "white English-speaking" nations in general and the UK in particular a little bit of a boost.

(Edit: Just fixing a typo or two)

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Yeh, on the Democracy Index. Russia in particular seems more relevant to the current situation than Spain or Portugal or Malta, and the UK absolutely needs to be included ironically.

And, well, them being an English institution explains why France is pushed down below 8.

 

[Chin Rey]

Yeh, on the Democracy Index. Russia in particular seems more relevant to the current situation than Spain or Portugal or Malta, and the UK absolutely needs to be included ironically.

I agree but as I said, my post was only intended as an illustration of Sid's point, not a response to the thread's topic as a whole.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Old stuff: John Mearsheimer telling you "Why is Ukraine the West's fault."

How and new: John Mearsheimer telling you "Why is Ukraine the West's fault" in The Economist.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

So, my counterpoint to the argument that Ukraine shouldn't be admitted.

1: As a whole they have been trying to become more democratic, and less corrupt; hence why they elected Zelenskyy.
2: They are a European Country, and its the EU.
3: I feel there are some old biases at play here.

Or, the TL;DR Ukraine is reaching out its hand to become a part of something, but more, even without the invasion, they are reaching out for help

That said, while I'm ethnically European, and even now pictures make me homesick [I was born in W Germany], I'm not a citizen, I'm an american citizen.

[And as such, I think that we should be doing more to help, but well.... yeah]

*Also, I have not supported any of our wars [since I became old enough] except for the one where we were asked for help - and iirc, nato -did- help a non-NATO country in that fight, too....

 

[bubblesort]

That Z on the Russian tanks stands for "Our leaders are nuts".
(If Lavrov can produce utterly bull shit, so can I.)

hmmm... interesting idea... if our leaders were NUTS theorists, that would certainly explain a lot!

 

[Free]

Kyiv or Kiev? Zelensky or Zelenskyy? For Ukraine, spelling is a political act

The spelling of Zelenskyy and Kyiv is more than just a simple matter of the letter Y. Behind it, there's a history of imperialism and resistance.

forward.com

 

[Free]

hmmm... interesting idea... if our leaders were NUTS theorists, that would certainly explain a lot!

NUTZ.

 

[Sid]

So, my counterpoint to the argument that Ukraine shouldn't be admitted.

1: As a whole they have been trying to become more democratic, and less corrupt; hence why they elected Zelenskyy.
2: They are a European Country, and its the EU.
3: I feel there are some old biases at play here.

It is not the membership of the local bridge club or golf course.
There are lots of rules and regulations to be met before a country can become a member. Turkey for instance is trying for decades to meet them and still does not succeed. And they are a lot further in the right direction then the Ukraine at the moment, but not democratic enough either.

Being a European country doesn't give you a right to get a membership of the EU.
The EU is a group of countries that have decided to work closely together so that they can form one free market for goods and people. Not to unite the whole of Europe. The name Europe is just part of the name. Just like the A in the USA without having the goal to unite all states in the American continents.

Nope there are no old biases. But a new member has to fit in before the process can start.
And the fact that Russia is attacking them at the moment, is not the right argument to let them become member over night.
That would mean WWIII. That price is no one willing to pay. Me neither if possible.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

It is not the membership of the local bridge club or golf course.
There are lots of rules and regulations to be met before a country can become a member. Turkey for instance is trying for decades to meet them and still does not succeed. And they are a lot further in the right direction then the Ukraine at the moment, but not democratic enough either.

Being a European country doesn't give you a right to get a membership of the EU.
The EU is a group of countries that have decided to work closely together so that they can form one free market for goods and people. Not to unite the whole of Europe. The name Europe is just part of the name. Just like the A in the USA without having the goal to unite all states in the American continents.

Nope there are no old biases. But a new member has to fit in before the process can start.
And the fact that Russia is attacking them at the moment, is not the right argument to let them become member over night.
That would mean WWIII. That price is no one willing to pay. Me neither if possible.

Notice, its a counterpoint [ie, devil's advocate in the old sense]. But I think that its also, from my viewpoint, that if you don't accept them [which well, the process is started officially now], then it might discourage them and make them give up [I don't think they will, because they are magnificently stubborn right now].

So, its not that I disagree with you, but rather, adding in other angles.
And I think its too late - I think we're already in the beginning of WWIII, about where we were in WWII when Hitler invaded Poland.... ;.;

 

[Romana]

Not that this will be a surprise to anyone, but it's an interesting article :

Russian TikTok Influencers Are Being Paid to Spread Kremlin Propaganda

An investigation by VICE News uncovered a coordinated campaign to pay Russian TikTok influencers to post videos pushing pro-Kremlin narratives.

www.vice.com

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

[And as such, I think that we should be doing more to help, but well.... yeah]

I'm willing to bet we do have clandestine boots on the ground... just the kind of black ops unit that maintains plausible deniability.

 

[Soen Eber]

Cris, isn't it about time to rename this thread to "Nobody Cares about World War Three"?

Thanks.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I'm willing to bet we do have clandestine boots on the ground... just the kind of black ops unit that maintains plausible deniability.

I'm positive of it - its not too unusual for us to 'let' active duty take a leave of absence to go and help on 'their own time'