The Russia-Ukraine War has begun

[Sid]

It is not that we are only watching the TV and drink our coffee or thee.

1. The EU is taking in Ukraine refugees without questions asked. And has taken in hundred thousands of them already. Every EU country is offering hospitality and working hard not to let these people sit in tents somewhere in no ones land. Former schools, military bases and large halls are prepared to house people temporary. Thousands of people in my country are willing to take in a refugee family into their homes.

2. Many EU countries are delivering weapons to the Ukraine. Of course that happens as silent as possible. Our government has for instance decided no longer to communicate what they are delivering to the Ukraine publicly. But I know we have delivered quite some in the last few weeks.

3. There are a lot of initiatives for humanitarian aid to the Ukraine. Here in the NL we had a TV and radio fundraising from GIRO555 where charity organizations work together when there is a big crisis in the world, like the sunami in Thailand in the past. This time it was for the Ukraine. So far they collected 137.4 million euro. Not to bad for a small county.

4. The sanctions for Russia are still getting more and more severe.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

It is not that we are only watching the TV and drink our coffee or thee.

1. The EU is taking in Ukraine refugees without questions asked. And has taken in hundred thousands of them already. Every EU country is offering hospitality and working hard not to let these people sit in tents somewhere in no ones land. Former schools, military bases and large halls are prepared to house people temporary. Thousands of people in my country are willing to take in a refugee family into their homes.

2. Many EU countries are delivering weapons to the Ukraine. Of course that happens as silent as possible. Our government has for instance decided no longer to communicate what they are delivering to the Ukraine publicly. But I know we have delivered quite some in the last few weeks.

3. There are a lot of initiatives for humanitarian aid to the Ukraine. Here in the NL we had a TV and radio fundraising from GIRO555 where charity organizations work together when there is a big crisis in the world, like the sunami in Thailand in the past. This time it was for the Ukraine. So far they collected 137.4 million euro. Not to bad for a small county.

4. The sanctions for Russia are still getting more and more severe.

I know.

 

[Sid]

I'm positive of it - its not too unusual for us to 'let' active duty take a leave of absence to go and help on 'their own time'

You should realize that a WWIII will not stop at the borders of the USA this time.
Nukes will fly when Russia starts to loose and those intercontinental missiles they have are not meant for Europe. The mid range ones will do for us to receive.

That said I tiptoe out this discussion for the time being.
I first have to cool down a bit.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

You should realize that a WWIII will not stop at the borders of the USA this time.
Nukes will fly when Russia starts to loose and those intercontinental missiles they have are not meant for Europe. The mid range ones will do for us to receive.

That said I tiptoe out this discussion for the time being.
I first have to cool down a bit.

I know this too. But if we don't stop it now [as a planet] then its just going to get worse.

 

[Lexxi]

The EU is no military organization nor pact. That would be NATO. And if Ukraine ever would join NATO, then Russia would go ballistic because what Russia is about in Ukraine is reducing possible attack corridors to Russia. Russia views NATO as a hostile, aggressive organization and enemy. The thing is that strategically Russia has not enough people for its enormous land mass to be able to defend it. This was different within USSR, when there were ~100 million more people.

What I quoted was Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union. Which is the Mutual Defence Clause.

Which has been used at least once. In 2015 after France was attacked by terrorists.

France invokes EU's article 42.7, but what does it mean?

The mutual defence clause is in play for the first time, but there are limits to what member states must do to help

www.theguardian.com

France has taken the European Union into uncharted territory by obliging the other 27 member states to come to its defence following the terrorist atrocities in Paris.

Invoking article 42.7, a never used clause of the EU treaty triggering mutual defence among the 28 member states, Paris admitted it was struggling to cope with its foreign military commitments while beefing up security at home in the wake of the attacks, and asked the rest of Europe to come to its assistance.

As a result of the train attacks in Spain in 2004, the EU inserted mutual defence measures into the Lisbon treaty similar to the Nato alliance’s article five, which obliges all member countries to come to the defence of one of their number if attacked.

As far as "EU does not have an army": it does not need to use NATO and the mutual defense pact part of the EU is not part of NATO. It's part of the EU treaty.

As the EU does not have an army, the French will now conduct a set of bilateral negotiations with other EU states on what kind of military help might be available.

Article 42.7 stipulates that “if a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with article 51 of the United Nations charter”.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

What I quoted was Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union. Which is the Mutual Defence Clause.

Which has been used at least once. In 2015 after France was attacked by terrorists.

France invokes EU's article 42.7, but what does it mean?

The mutual defence clause is in play for the first time, but there are limits to what member states must do to help

www.theguardian.com

As far as "EU does not have an army": it does not need to use NATO and the mutual defense pact part of the EU is not part of NATO. It's part of the EU treaty.

Also, as I understand it, the EU itself is a member o NATO - and as such, even individual member countries are still technically a part of NATO even if they are specifically so? I mean, I could be misunderstanding what information I have, but that would be logical.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

 

[Lexxi]

Also, as I understand it, the EU itself is a member o NATO - and as such, even individual member countries are still technically a part of NATO even if they are specifically so? I mean, I could be misunderstanding what information I have, but that would be logical.

Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden are in EU but not part of NATO. So those countries would be obligated to provide some help (doesn't have to be military) to an EU country that has been attacked, due to EU treaty. (ETA: but not obligated to provide help if a NATO nation was attacked, and that NATO nation was outside EU).

Or: The membership of EU does not match up with the membership of the European nations in NATO.

ETA: Oh, EU as a single entity as opposed to the member states of EU being members of NATO? I do not believe EU as an entity is part of NATO.

 

[Sid]

I know this too. But if we don't stop it now [as a planet] then its just going to get worse.

WWIII will end life on earth as we know it.

Russia has enough nukes to destroy the world several times. So has the USA.
And then there are the ones from France, Britain, North Korea and others who have them in commission like Italy, the NL and those who have them most likely secretly like Isreal, India.
And totally unknown what the position of China will be in the end.

No one will survive. There is no Hollywood scenario available once the missiles start to fly back and forth.

 

[Sid]

ETA: Oh, EU as a single entity as opposed to the member states of EU being members of NATO? I do not believe EU as an entity is part of NATO.

The EU is not a country, so not a member of NATO. Only individual countries are, like you pointed out already.

 

[Chin Rey]

Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden are in EU but not part of NATO.

That's right. And the UK, Norway, Iceland, Turkey, Montenergo, North Macedonia and Albania are members of NATO but not EU.


There is quite a bit of overlapping of course but EU and NATO really are two different organisations bit different purposes.

 

[Sid]

Putin goes to a fortune teller. The fortune teller says he sees thousands of people dancing in the street, cheering, throwing confetti and drinking vodka while soldiers march, a marching band plays and canons shoot salutes as Putin passes the crowd.
Putin gets all excited about the news and asks: "Am I enjoying myself?"
The fortune teller turns a bit pale in his face and says: "Sorry sir, I can't see that. You are transported in a closed coffin."

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

I'm positive of it - its not too unusual for us to 'let' active duty take a leave of absence to go and help on 'their own time'

Yeah, and a lot of what I've read about clandestine units is that they are basically always fighting in wars Americans have never heard of for all sorts of weird reasons... this seems like it would be a high priority.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

I'm willing to bet we do have clandestine boots on the ground... just the kind of black ops unit that maintains plausible deniability.

Oh no worries, the US support for Ukraine was quite visible in the past.

This here is a screenshot of 2014 president candidate Arseniy Yatsenyuk. As we know Poroshenko won. But hey... isn't that a great picture?

A presidency candidate with a foundation sponsored by NATO, US Department of State, NED which is supposedly a cover/front organization for the CIA, International Renaissance Foundation by George Soros, and some other equally interesting stuff as well.

If any foreign country would officially sponsor a presidency candidate in America that way I guess hell would break lose.

Web archive link, so no fake: Partners - Open Ukraine: Arseniy Yatsenyuk foundation

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Oh no worries, the US support for Ukraine was quite visible in the past.

This here is a screenshot of 2014 president candidate Arseniy Yatsenyuk. As we know Poroshenko won. But hey... isn't that a great picture?

A presidency candidate with a foundation sponsored by NATO, US Department of State, NED which is supposedly a cover/front organization for the CIA, International Renaissance Foundation by George Soros, and some other equally interesting stuff as well.

If any foreign country would officially sponsor a presidency candidate in America that way I guess hell would break lose.

Web archive link, so no fake: Partners - Open Ukraine: Arseniy Yatsenyuk foundation

No it wouldn't, because, surprise, Putin gave us four years of TFG - all of us, not just the US.

Also, the downside of the American system is that we often get crap governments elected into office that don't even do what most of the people in their own party want [voters, not the politicians]

Our government has done a lot of shitty and shady crap - I could start listing the ones I know about, but that's a topic for a different thread, isn't it.

 

[Soen Eber]

The U.S. government works on the sponsorship program. No required patches, however, but you do get a flag pin. Your choice of US, Russia, China, Belize, or Seychelles.

 

[WolfEyes]

Kyiv or Kiev? Zelensky or Zelenskyy? For Ukraine, spelling is a political act

The spelling of Zelenskyy and Kyiv is more than just a simple matter of the letter Y. Behind it, there's a history of imperialism and resistance.

forward.com

I just learned something new. I wasn't aware there was a difference between Ukraine and The Ukraine. I almost posted that question until I read the article. So, now my question is what is the difference? The article doesn't say what the difference is, just that they are different.

Yes, I could google it but I need to go lay down for a while first.

“In reality, it does not matter, because it is pronounced the same way,” said Dibrova. “On the other hand it could be very important as a marker of your identity (Husak vs Gusak, Belorus vs Bielorussia, Moldova vs Moldavia, Ukraine vs the Ukraine). So sometimes it becomes a very sensitive issue. It immediately shows “what side you’re on.”

I've been in the habit of saying the Ukraine for so long that I'm not sure I can break it.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I just learned something new. I wasn't aware there was a difference between Ukraine and The Ukraine. I almost posted that question until I read the article. So, now my question is what is the difference? The article doesn't say what the difference is, just that they are different.

Yes, I could google it but I need to go lay down for a while first.



I've been in the habit of saying the Ukraine for so long that I'm not sure I can break it.

I -think- the difference is Ukraine is a sovereign country and The Ukraine was a province in Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union [ and yes, its a hard habit to break, but knowing what it is helps me a bit, at least].

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I just learned something new. I wasn't aware there was a difference between Ukraine and The Ukraine. I almost posted that question until I read the article. So, now my question is what is the difference? The article doesn't say what the difference is, just that they are different.

Many of my international students get really confused about when to use "The." Latin and Germanic languages have articles but Slavic and Chinese languages (among others) don't.

The point is that (1) "Ukraine" is a direct translation: there is nothing in Russian, Polish, or Ukrainian that translates as "the" before "Ukraine"* and (2) In English and other Western European languages, adding "the" downplays the status of Ukraine from an independent country to a territory (like "The Crimean Peninsula") which feeds into Russian arguments that it isn't really a country, it's just a region that Russian governments have ruled in the recent past, so why not now? It removes the distinctiveness of Ukraine as a country and Ukrainians as a distinct identity separate from Russia.

*A link in the article includes a note that it was probably picked up from French writers, where "la/le" is used before most country names.

 

[Romana]

WWIII will end life on earth as we know it.

Russia has enough nukes to destroy the world several times. So has the USA.
And then there are the ones from France, Britain, North Korea and others who have them in commission like Italy, the NL and those who have them most likely secretly like Isreal, India.
And totally unknown what the position of China will be in the end.

No one will survive. There is no Hollywood scenario available once the missiles start to fly back and forth.

So there's no point in waiting, is there?
Back to the suicide plans, then.