The Death of the Grand Old Party

WolfEyes

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They could, and should, use those funds for training cops not to be so trigger happy and /or biased, or having mental health professionals in hand to help deal with disturbed people. Oh, yeah, and diversity training and me diverse hiring.
The funds for training are already budgeted. They do NOT need MORE. They need to REFOCUS the training. That does not require more money. It may even require less in the long term. This is one thing the Brits got right and America needs to follow suit especially since they have a working, successful model staring them right in the eyes.

ETA: If my anger shows in my words, it's not directed at you. I apologize for my tone. I'm not going to change anything I said though because I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at Homo sapiens sapiens.
 
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Soen Eber

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The funds for training are already budgeted. They do NOT need MORE. They need to REFOCUS the training. That does not require more money. It may even require less in the long term. This is one thing the Brits got right and America needs to follow suit especially since they have a working, successful model staring them right in the eyes.

ETA: If my anger shows in my words, it's not directed at you. I apologize for my tone. I'm not going to change anything I said though because I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at Homo sapiens sapiens.
I don't know whether to press hug or agree.
 

Jolene Benoir

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Exactly.

It's because of this the Republicans can gin up FUD, because there are so many voices, and some of them are bound to be both off-key and frightening to a large subset of voters. See the "defund the police" article linked in my signature. We nearly lost the Senate because of how this was interpreted because conservatives are so literal-minded in their fear and suspicion.

We need consistent messaging, and, I hate to say that, maybe even some "gate keepers" - as horrible as that sounds. I don't mean silencing or supressing, but a clarification that sets boundary lines around core Democratic political goals.
The term "defund the police" or what was also heard at the time "abolish the police" got my hair sticking up on its head. The reason for that was that I live in a high-crime neighborhood. We were already being under-served in a severe manner. We either get no police response at all or we get crazy trigger-happy cops; very little in-between.

I'm not alone. Nekima Levy Armstrong, our previous NAACP president didn't like it either. She conducted peaceful protests at my own 4th precinct when they murdered Jamar Clark. I attended those. She felt, as I do, that some people who were justifiably outraged following the murder of George Floyd were not thinking their plan through, exactly. The people it would hurt would be those most vulnerable to either the criminals or the cops. She also wasn't happy that black voices were NOT being listened to, in particular our police chief Arrondondo.


I agree that "demilitarize the pollce" or even something like "stop murdering us" would have been more helpful. Our City Council was very knee-jerk in their responses. Lisa Bender, the white leader of the council, was the most vocal and strident voice of abolishing the police. I don't have much respect for her, as you can guess. She lived in the Lowry Hill neighborhood, a white and wealthy enclave. When she faced backlash, she had round-the-clock security, on our dime. Not a single person who lives in dangerous areas got such a thing, as crime here exploded. I see her as a do-gooder who has all these ideas that she doesn't have to live with; no understanding of the entirety of the issues.

I DO understand the impulse. Burn it all down and create something better. I just question the impulsiveness of not having something planned, BEFORE making such calls. Social workers going out to domestic violence calls? No. They will be dead social workers as that is one of the most volatile situations. Don't forget that a pretty high majority of mass murderers have a domestic violence history. A lot of the people these social workers will be asked to contend with are armed and VERY angry at the time of contact.

Anyhow, just my thoughts on it.
 
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Romana

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The term "defund the police" or what was also heard at the time "abolish the police" got my hair sticking up on its head. The reason for that was that I live in a high-crime neighborhood. We were already being under-served in a severe manner. We either get no police response at all or we get crazy trigger-happy cops; very little in-between.

I'm not alone. Nekima Levy Armstrong, our previous NAACP president didn't like it either. She conducted peaceful protests at my own 4th precinct when they murdered Jamar Clark. I attended those. She felt, as I do, that some people who were justifiably outraged following the murder of George Floyd were not thinking their plan through, exactly. The people it would hurt would be those most vulnerable to either the criminals or the cops. She also wasn't happy that black voices were NOT being listened to, in particular our police chief Arrondondo.


I agree that "demilitarize the pollce" or even something like "stop murdering us" would have been more helpful. Our City Council was very knee-jerk in their responses. Lisa Bender, the white leader of the council, was the most vocal and strident voice of abolishing the police. I don't have much respect for her, as you can guess. She lived in the Lowry Hill neighborhood, a white and wealthy enclave. When she faced backlash, she had round-the-clock security, on our dime. Not a single person who lives in dangerous areas got such a thing, as crime here exploded. I see her as a do-gooder who has all these ideas that she doesn't have to live with; no understanding of the entirety of the issues.

I DO understand the impulse. Burn it all down and create something better. I just question the impulsiveness of not having something planned, BEFORE making such calls. Social workers going out to domestic violence calls? No. They will be dead social workers as that is one of the most volatile situations. Don't forget that a pretty high majority of mass murderers have a domestic violence history. A lot of the people these social workers will be asked to contend with are armed and VERY angry at the time of contact.

Anyhow, just my thoughts on it.
It should have been "reform the police". Accurate, and same number of syllables as what they used, so just as easy to chant. I remember "abolish the police" too. People who said that advocated "community policing", forgetting, it seemed,that this would probably lead to George Zimmerman types or Proud Boys getting involved.
 

Innula Zenovka

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It should have been "reform the police". Accurate, and same number of syllables as what they used, so just as easy to chant. I remember "abolish the police" too. People who said that advocated "community policing", forgetting, it seemed,that this would probably lead to George Zimmerman types or Proud Boys getting involved.
I keep on reading that the US police follow the maxim "better tried by twelve than carried by six."

This is very true, but British policing is based on the principle, which I would have thought was self-evident, that it's better still by far to avoid both outcomes.
 

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I'm not alone. Nekima Levy Armstrong, our previous NAACP president didn't like it either. She conducted peaceful protests at my own 4th precinct when they murdered Jamar Clark. I attended those. She felt, as I do, that some people who were justifiably outraged following the murder of George Floyd were not thinking their plan through, exactly. The people it would hurt would be those most vulnerable to either the criminals or the cops. She also wasn't happy that black voices were NOT being listened to, in particular our police chief Arrondondo.
Its like calls for companies to boycott states like Georgia. Most every single one that did decide to leave would be most likely to hit jobs in Atlanta; if it were Delta, mostly the south west of Atlanta. The MLB pull out also mostly hurt Atlanta. In other words, all these things don't hurt anyone but the people everyone is supposedly trying to help.

I'm sure Kemp couldn't give two fucks about the economy in Atlanta tanking.... especially if it didn't affect the wealthy republican donors.
 

Jolene Benoir

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To get back to the idea of just how militarized our police departments across the country have become, I came across this old article from 2014.

To quote:
Congress authorized the 1033 program in 1989 to equip local, state and federal agencies in the war on drugs. In 1996, Congress widened the program's scope to include counterterrorism. But the data do not confirm whether either of those public safety goals are, in fact, driving decisions about the distribution of equipment. Areas with large populations or high crime rates aren't necessarily receiving more or less than their share of the items. Nor is a greater amount of equipment being sent to areas along the U.S. borders or coasts, places more likely to be drug trafficking corridors or terrorist targets.
Small podunk places are getting this equipment, though I can attest that large cities have also gotten this equipment.

So yeah, the *War on Drugs* led to it initially, with surplus military equipment becoming more readily available due to our wars all playing a role. That they've largely targeted majority minority populations with this equipment is not lost on me. This program needs to end. It won't put the genie back in the bottle, but can stop future acquisitions.

The police are out of control and view us as their enemies, while using military grade equipment upon us. Guys coming back from war and joining police depts probably has not helped, either.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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A simple phrase I haven't heard is "Police Reform". It needs to be something like that, short and simple.

[EDIT] Until Romana said it three posts up from this one :D
Regarding police *reform*, I think that most activists had been calling for that for years upon years, with nothing happening. People were still being murdered. Even now, as some call for abolishing the police, the murders keep happening.

I think it might have been a matter of being fed up with business as usual; that calls for reform went nowhere. Stronger words came out. Inflaming and not well thought out words, but I can understand it.

I don't know the answer. I just know that a complete overhaul is necessary, but definitely do not agree with the idea of abolition or de-funding at a time when we have a large population held captive at the hands of both the criminals and the cops. I am not cool with innocents suffering under whatever we come up with to fix this multi-faceted problem. I am soon out of this, but I care for all my brethren still suffering under it, those left behind who don't have the means to get out.

I think a good start would be taking away ALL of their military toys, though that obviously would not have made a difference in the death of George Floyd and now Mario Gonzalez as all they needed there was their knees and elbows. Training? Yeah, but they have jaded people training them.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I think a good start would be taking away ALL of their military toys, though that obviously would not have made a difference in the death of George Floyd and now Mario Gonzalez as all they needed there was their knees and elbows. Training? Yeah, but they have jaded people training them.
In the cases of the murder of George Floyd and (to my mind) Mario Gonzalez what's required is the rigorous application of something like the criminal law in the UK, and, I would suspect, the US, too.

That is, the intentional use of force against another, against that person's will, is by default unlawful save in very particular circumstances.

Among those circumstances are self-defence, the defence of another, and effecting a lawful arrest.

However, at least in the UK, the degree of force used must be reasonable, given your understanding of the situation at the time, and must be the minimum necessary to achieve your lawful purpose (fend off your attacker or subdue him, for example).

If you continue to use force after it ceases to be necessary, or use a greater degree of force than is necessary, then it becomes unlawful, and therefore some sort of criminal assault from that moment on.

So, while it's certainly lawful to use reasonable force to subdue a suspect, even taking him to the ground if necessary, so he doesn't harm either himself or anyone else, once he's restrained and in handcuffs, then the police have to allow him to stand, or at least sit, while they summon assistance or make arrangements to take him into custody, or whatever.

That's what they're trained to do here, and they do it. They'd rightly be fired and prosecuted if they didn't.
 
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Now what, indeed.
 
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To get back to the idea of just how militarized our police departments across the country have become, I came across this old article from 2014.

To quote:


Small podunk places are getting this equipment, though I can attest that large cities have also gotten this equipment.

So yeah, the *War on Drugs* led to it initially, with surplus military equipment becoming more readily available due to our wars all playing a role. That they've largely targeted majority minority populations with this equipment is not lost on me. This program needs to end. It won't put the genie back in the bottle, but can stop future acquisitions.

The police are out of control and view us as their enemies, while using military grade equipment upon us. Guys coming back from war and joining police depts probably has not helped, either.
The War on Drugs may have initially been meant to protect society from the scourge of drug sales and use (read into that what you may). But, dammit, I think the War on Drugs has been far more damaging to society than the drugs themselves! And, yeah, I think some of the drugs that got the most focus were those more likely to be used by minorities.

I think we'd be a much freer society as a whole had we have chosen to regulate drug use versus declaring war on it.
 

WolfEyes

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The War on Drugs may have initially been meant to protect society from the scourge of drug sales and use (read into that what you may). But, dammit, I think the War on Drugs has been far more damaging to society than the drugs themselves! And, yeah, I think some of the drugs that got the most focus were those more likely to be used by minorities.

I think we'd be a much freer society as a whole had we have chosen to regulate drug use versus declaring war on it.
Some of us tried to tell them that. They didn't listen. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯