Texas Heartbeat Abortion Law

[Jopsy Pendragon]

It's an STD... Sexually Transmitted Descendent!

 

[Free]

I just got my booster for twins.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Since the Texas State Legislature is apparently of the opinion that a beating heart is, on its own, a sign of continuing human life, and as such worthy of legal protection, I wonder what on earth they make of heart transplant procedures.

If the donor isn't dead before the surgeon removes their heart, they certainly will be afterwards, which makes it murder in most jurisdictions, even, I would think, Texas.

I'd have said that a functioning heart is a necessary prerequisite to life, but then so are a lot of other organs.

The test I would use is when the organised electrical activity in the foetus' developing brain is recognisably that of a living human -- that is, one of the main tests used to determine when life ends, which seems to me should be a good enough test of when it begins, too.

Certainly, though, basing civil law on the notion that life begins at the moment a heart beat is detectable is in no way defensible on scientific grounds.

I would very strongly argue, were I an American, that it was attempting to introduce a non-medical (and therefore theological) view of life in the law, which seems to violate the First Amendment.

(I would also argue it's bad theology, but that's another matter).

 

[Romana]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

I'd have said that a functioning heart is a necessary prerequisite to life, but then so are a lot of other organs.

The test I would use is when the organised electrical activity in the foetus' developing brain is recognisably that of a living human -- that is, one of the main tests used to determine when life ends, which seems to me should be a good enough test of when it begins, too.

Definitely the latter. Given cases like Dick Cheney who definitely doesn't have a heart or (iirc) a detectable heartbeat.

 

[Zaida Gearbox]

Since the Texas State Legislature is apparently of the opinion that a beating heart is, on its own, a sign of continuing human life, and as such worthy of legal protection, I wonder what on earth they make of heart transplant procedures.

If the donor isn't dead before the surgeon removes their heart, they certainly will be afterwards, which makes it murder in most jurisdictions, even, I would think, Texas.

I'd have said that a functioning heart is a necessary prerequisite to life, but then so are a lot of other organs.

The test I would use is when the organised electrical activity in the foetus' developing brain is recognisably that of a living human -- that is, one of the main tests used to determine when life ends, which seems to me should be a good enough test of when it begins, too.

Certainly, though, basing civil law on the notion that life begins at the moment a heart beat is detectable is in no way defensible on scientific grounds.

I would very strongly argue, were I an American, that it was attempting to introduce a non-medical (and therefore theological) view of life in the law, which seems to violate the First Amendment.

(I would also argue it's bad theology, but that's another matter).

Yeah but apparently brain waves start around week 5-6 too.

 

[Romana]

Yeah but apparently brain waves start around week 5-6 too.

Electrical impulses do. The brain as a whole takes much longer to develop.

When Does the Fetus's Brain Begin to Work?

Generally speaking, the central nervous system (which is composed of the brain and the spinal cord) matures in a sequence from "tail" to head.

www.zerotothree.org

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Yeah but apparently brain waves start around week 5-6 too.

At about the midpoint of pregnancy, from about 15 to 20 weeks after conception, the number of brain cells in the cerebral cortex increases rapidly; by the seventh month, the fetus is emitting its own brain waves, which can be detected through the mother's abdomen.

The Development and Shaping of the Brain - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

Google is not difficult to use, or should not be.

The point about organised brain activity is that it indicates that the various parts of the developing foetus' body and nervous system are beginning to function as an autonomous and increasingly self-regulating whole.

ETA: As I understand it, this is well before the foetus can even be described as unconscious -- more that the brain has reached a stage where consciousness can start to develop as a possibility. The brain, rather, has started to regulate involuntary activity in other parts of the foetus' body that had previously been regulated by the mother.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

The Development and Shaping of the Brain - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

Google is not difficult to use, or should not be.

The point about organised brain activity is that it indicates that the various parts of the developing foetus' body and nervous system are beginning to function as an autonomous and increasingly self-regulating whole.

ETA: As I understand it, this is well before the foetus can even be described as unconscious -- more that the brain has reached a stage where consciousness can start to develop as a possibility. The brain, rather, has started to regulate involuntary activity in other parts of the foetus' body that had previously been regulated by the mother.

I want to point out that if the slightest brain waves are evidence the fetus is a person with sentience, then that raises A LOT of ethical questions about eating animals and even some plants! I honestly doubt that even a newborn baby is sentient... not that I am advocating aborting that late.

 

[Free]

I want to point out that if the slightest brain waves are evidence the fetus is a person with sentience, then that raises A LOT of ethical questions about eating animals and even some plants!

Sorry, but you're disqualified for bringing up discomforting thoughts about our tasty victuals.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Texas anti-abortion law shows ‘terrifying’ fragility of women’s rights, say activists

Campaigners fear ban emboldens anti-choice governments as more aggressive opposition, better organised and funded, spreads from US

www.theguardian.com

Evernote link

 

[Innula Zenovka]

By way of contrast, the HIgh Court has just heard and rejected an application to have late term abortions on the ground of Down's Syndrome declared impermissible because, the Claimants argued, it is incompatible with various provisions of Human Rights Act and of legislation against discrimination on the grounds of disability.

Woman with Down’s syndrome loses UK abortion law case

Heidi Crowter has argued allowing terminations up to birth if foetus has Down’s syndrome is discriminatory

www.theguardian.com

I'd recommend the reading the actual judgment to see how an English court and English law deal with these issues

Crowter -v- Secretary Of State For Health And Social Care - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Neutral Citation Number: [2021] EWHC 2536 (Admin) Case No: CO/2066/2020 In The High Court Of Justice Queen’s Bench Division Administrative Court 23 September 2021 Before : Lord Justice Singh and Mrs Justice Lieven Between : The Queen (on the Application of (1) Heidi Crowter (2) Maire...

www.judiciary.uk

 

[Arkady Arkright]

I'd recommend the reading the actual judgment to see how an English court and English law deal with these issues

I'm not clear on our devolved legal responsibilities - Is the High Court devolved, or is it still an all-Britain court ?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm not clear on our devolved legal responsibilities - Is the High Court devolved, or is it still an all-Britain court ?

England and Wales have a common legal system, and the High Court is part of that. They're hearing it because they're the relevant jurisdiction at this stage, though it's a UK-wide matter. If it goes to the Supreme Court, then that's UK-wide.

 

[Free]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

By way of contrast, the HIgh Court has just heard and rejected an application to have late term abortions on the ground of Down's Syndrome declared impermissible because, the Claimants argued, it is incompatible with various provisions of Human Rights Act and of legislation against discrimination on the grounds of disability.

Woman with Down’s syndrome loses UK abortion law case

Heidi Crowter has argued allowing terminations up to birth if foetus has Down’s syndrome is discriminatory

www.theguardian.com

I'd recommend the reading the actual judgment to see how an English court and English law deal with these issues

Crowter -v- Secretary Of State For Health And Social Care - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Neutral Citation Number: [2021] EWHC 2536 (Admin) Case No: CO/2066/2020 In The High Court Of Justice Queen’s Bench Division Administrative Court 23 September 2021 Before : Lord Justice Singh and Mrs Justice Lieven Between : The Queen (on the Application of (1) Heidi Crowter (2) Maire...

www.judiciary.uk

I've been reading the judgment in more detail and it strikes me that it's the absolute mirror image of the situation in the US: the High Court stressed it could not consider any wider social or moral questions but had to confine itself to the law, made it clear that it refused to involve itself in judicial law-making, saying it's for Parliament, not the judiciary, to decide matters of this sort, and stressing the importance of the broad discretion of states party to differ in their approaches to matters like abortion.

These considerations led it to conclude that the application was a non-starter.

Oh, and the Court of Appeal very recently overturned an earlier decision of the High Court that minors can't consent to particular forms of TG therapy by, in effect, following a very strict, small-c conservative, approach to the matter, saying that as a matter of law (though possibly not of fact in any particular case) minors are perfectly able, as a matter of law, to take this kind of decision, and the courts should be involved only when their doctor is unsure of their actual ability to take an informed decision. So, strict interpretation working in favour of trans rights.

(The Claimants may appeal this decision, too, of course, but since the law clearly doesn't say what they'd like it to, and since also the courts do not want to get involved in adjudicating moral or culture war issues, I doubt they'll bother. The Judgment is pretty thorough in its dismissal of the Claimants' arguments.)

 

[Innula Zenovka]

David Simon defends decision to pull HBO series from Texas following abortion ban

Wire creator responds to backlash, saying decision is part of effort to ‘maintain the civil liberties’ of production employees

www.theguardian.com

Evernote link

 

[Innula Zenovka]

'I help people in Texas who choose an abortion'

Makayla says she's been flooded with cries for help since Texas introduced a strict anti-abortion law.

www.bbc.co.uk

ETA

Is the Texas Abortion Law Backfiring on the People Who Pushed It Through?

As women rally for abortion rights this weekend, the law faces mounting challenges in the courts.

www.theatlantic.com

Evernote link