WTF Sh*t's F*cked Up and Bullsh*t - a "Who Cares" thread for news

Tigger

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Good to see JK go public with her terf bullshit.
You know it's strange. I see "TERF" floating past my social media at times, recently its been about safe spaces for women or women's sports. But it crops up fairly frequently.

You know what I've never seen, not even once? "TERM" which would be the same but relating to males instead of females.

Im pretty sure that 99% of the time when I see someone using TERF, it's just another way of attacking women.
 

Lady Darnk Juniorette

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You know it's strange. I see "TERF" floating past my social media at times, recently its been about safe spaces for women or women's sports. But it crops up fairly frequently.

You know what I've never seen, not even once? "TERM" which would be the same but relating to males instead of females.

Im pretty sure that 99% of the time when I see someone using TERF, it's just another way of attacking women.
I don't have the patience to educate you on this, can someone else get this one?

And its an abbreviation for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Why you don't see term is because a meninist isn't a fucking thing.
 
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Ashiri

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I don't have the patience to educate you on this, can someone else get this one?

And its an abbreviation for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Why you don't see term is because a meninist isn't a fucking thing.
I'm not sure I can manage this but apart from there being no counterpart to feminist, in that feminism is about equality, there are many male misogynists who are transphobic. Indeed, it is a common ploy of the misogynists to misrepresent what feminism is about.

When the judge called the complainant an absolutist, he was being rather kind.
 

Tigger

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I don't have the patience to educate you on this, can someone else get this one?

And its an abbreviation for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Why you don't see term is because a meninist isn't a fucking thing.
Where else do we see people declaring others to be "radical feminists" and attacking them ?
 

Ashiri

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What if someone does identify as a "radical feminist"?
(Now I don't know if I would call myself a radical feminist but I do want to see full equality)

I'd also like to point out that it seems to me that most, if not all, who are transphobic also seek to sweep intersex people under the mat.
 

Lady Darnk Juniorette

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You know, fuck it, I'm not even waiting for a response i'm just putting your ass on ignore.

I don't have the patience for this shit and I find it hard to believe you can be this ignorant on this to even ask these questions.

If anyone else wants to go ahead.
Not dealing with the same shit we did with Ingrid
 

Innula Zenovka

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You know it's strange. I see "TERF" floating past my social media at times, recently its been about safe spaces for women or women's sports. But it crops up fairly frequently.

You know what I've never seen, not even once? "TERM" which would be the same but relating to males instead of females.

Im pretty sure that 99% of the time when I see someone using TERF, it's just another way of attacking women.
It seems to be a contentious term, I agree.

However, in this context, we need a term for someone who uses concerns about preserving some safe spaces (particularly ones like showers and changing rooms that involve communal nudity) for both CIS and Trans women -- which may very well be perfectly legitimate, and shared by both CIS and Trans women -- as camouflage for her refusal to accept that she has to comply with the terms the Gender Recognition Act and the relevant sections of the Equality Act 2010 and for her insistence on misgendering people on the grounds that, not unlike some US wedding-cake makers and country clerks when it comes to same sex marriage, she disagrees with the law so she should be able to ignore it.

What term would you suggest?
 

Argent Stonecutter

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You know what I've never seen, not even once? "TERM" which would be the same but relating to males instead of females.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Masculinists? What's a masculinist? Or should that be "masculist"? It's pretty fringe, anyway.

Or are you talking about soi-disant "Men's Right's Advocates"? Doesn't that kind of automatically imply both radical and trans-exclusionary by default?

Point is... whatever group of people you are referring to, they're pretty awful regardless of their gender.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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What if someone does identify as a "radical feminist"?
(Now I don't know if I would call myself a radical feminist but I do want to see full equality)

I'd also like to point out that it seems to me that most, if not all, who are transphobic also seek to sweep intersex people under the mat.
Nothing wrong with being a radical feminist, to my mind, but there's a lot wrong with using that -- possibly quite genuine -- radical feminism as an excuse for transphobic behaviour, particularly when it's also unlawful.
 

Innula Zenovka

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You know it's strange. I see "TERF" floating past my social media at times, recently its been about safe spaces for women or women's sports. But it crops up fairly frequently.

You know what I've never seen, not even once? "TERM" which would be the same but relating to males instead of females.

Im pretty sure that 99% of the time when I see someone using TERF, it's just another way of attacking women.
I don't think I've ever seen men complaining about trans-men using male only facilities such as showers and changing rooms, so I've never needed a specific term to describe them.

Maybe you could direct me to where I can find such complaints?
 

Tigger

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It seems to be a contentious term, I agree.

However, in this context, we need a term for someone who uses concerns about preserving some safe spaces (particularly ones like showers and changing rooms that involve communal nudity) for both CIS and Trans women -- which may very well be perfectly legitimate, and shared by both CIS and Trans women -- as camouflage for her refusal to accept that she has to comply with the terms the Gender Recognition Act and the relevant sections of the Equality Act 2010 and for her insistence on misgendering people on the grounds that, not unlike some US wedding-cake makers and country clerks when it comes to same sex marriage, she disagrees with the law so she should be able to ignore it.

What term would you suggest?
OK lets start there at a safe space for women, a communal shower or changing room. Who can enter it, well clearly only women. So what defines who is a woman? If the answer to that question is self identity then essentially that is not a safe space for women any longer as anyone can make a claim a female self identity which cannot be questioned. A woman entering a communal shower and finding someone with a penis in there is... what? reasonably concerned or a transphobe not respecting that persons self identity?
 
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Innula Zenovka

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OK lets start there at a safe space for women, a communal shower or changing room. Who can enter it, well clearly only women. So what defines who is a woman? If the answer to that question is self identity then essentially that is not a safe space for women any longer as anyone can make a claim a female self identity which cannot be questioned. A woman entering a communal shower and finding someone with a penis in there is... what? reasonably concerned or a transphobe not respecting that persons self identity?
Depends on the circumstances, the establishment and the woman involved, I guess.

To my mind, it's a very complex question, best decided -- if necessary with the assistance of the courts -- on a case by case basis, since it involves a complex balancing act between two perfectly valid, though conflicting, sets of rights, rather than by trying to provide a one-size-fits-all solution off the top of my head.

I certainly don't know enough about human rights law to answer the question, and I doubt many people other than specialist human rights lawyers do, either, but I'd suggest there's probably one answer that's appropriate for the changing rooms in a department store, another that's appropriate for a sports club or swimming pool and another that's more appropriate for women's prisons.

That's not because I think it's a matter only of the law -- though obviously we all have to live and work within the constraints of particular legal frameworks and campaign to change the law if we don't like it -- but because human rights lawyers are used to scrutinising complex and conflicting rights, and finding equitable balances and compromises between them, in a way that I'm not.

I think, too, that whoever is considering the actual solutions to real problems faced by real people -- which is what courts are for -- rather than the hypothetical problems hypothetical people might face in hypothetical situations -- which is what Parliament and Twitter are good at debating -- needs to be clear about separating out many people's genuine discomfort with public nudity even when everyone appears, physiologically at least, to share the same gender vs the equally genuine concerns some CIS- and Trans- people feel about using the same facilities in each other's company.

Above my pay grade to solve, I think, unless someone is willing to retain my services to research the matter, which I doubt many people would think a good use of their money.

But that doesn't help me with the questions I put to you about
  • what term we should use to describe someone using her misgivings about shared facilities as an excuse for insisting on persistently misgendering people and ignoring the provisions of the Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act
  • where I can find (other, perhaps, than in MRA and Incel forums) examples of men complaining about trans men using all-male facilities.
 
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Beebo Brink

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If the answer to that question is self identity then essentially that is not a safe space for women any longer...
Safe from what? What exactly are the dangers that suddenly arise?

The first that might come to mind is the trauma of seeing a penis. Assuming that the restroom or changing room has the normal allotment of doors, this is a minimal risk. I can't imagine there are many transwomen who want to flaunt their penis about, if anything I daresay they go out of their way to keep it out of sight.

The second possibility is a transwoman actually using her penis for a sexual assault on the cis-gendered women within that space. Are there any cases of transwomen engaging in this type of assault? Since sexual assault is already a crime, do we really need any specific legislation aimed at all transpeople to prevent this crime?
 

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Im pretty sure that 99% of the time when I see someone using TERF, it's just another way of attacking women.
99% of the time TERFS are either: Reposting pics from the trans Reddits and "LOL HE THINK HE A WOMAN SO UGLY" or doing trolling raids on Lesbians' Reddits. Not pleasant people (understatement of the day.)

The main driving thought behind them is "U BORN WITH PEEPEE U NEVER BE REALWOMAN(tm), so they can collectively fuck off. Along with the LGBnoT crowd.
 

Han Held

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The second possibility is a transwoman actually using her penis for a sexual assault on the cis-gendered women within that space. Are there any cases of transwomen engaging in this type of assault?
I've been told by a friend that's sliding into exclusionary feminism that there have been cases. I don't think our friendship could survive my asking for specifics -so I haven't.

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