WTF Sh*t's F*cked Up and Bullsh*t - a "Who Cares" thread for news

[Innula Zenovka]

Ok so, first why have gender segregated facilities at all, why not just go full unisex? Most such segregated facilities involve some degree of perceived vulnerability. Some people may be entirely comfortable in the presence of anyone but they are probably a minority. Some people are hugely uncomfortable even with just their own gender. But most are probably just comfortable enough in the company of their own gender. Surely part of the point of gender segregation in some settings is to make women feel more comfortable or safer than they would usually feel in the presence of men given the omnipresence of sexual harassment when men are around. Women may well feel defensive or vulnerable in the presence of men surely that is even more the case if they are in a situation where they may be partially or completely undressed?

Second part of this, is the assumption that someone in the female facilities is female. Regardless. The act of entering the female designated facility is a declaration of your self identity therefore there are no men in there only females. I don't believe that.

There are men in the world who are deeply nasty, who will abuse any system for any benefit, men who hate women. This gives them a weapon. By falsely self identifying as female they gain access to places they would not have had access to in the past (victory: man!)
Or if they are challenged for trying to gain access to such places they can cry foul!, Misgendering! which is apparently a crime now (victory: man!). The only people who will always lose out are women. If you think this will not happen, then you have a far kinder view of people than I have.

I understand the desire to allow people to just self-identify but there are no checks, there is no way to determine if the claim is true or if its someone seeking to abuse the system.

But when you start to look for actual cases in which these deeply nasty men, who will abuse any system for any benefit, have actually falsely presented as trans women in order to assault women in public bathrooms, they're vanishingly hard to find:

3 myths in the transgender bathroom debate

The debate over transgender rights in America often gets reduced to bathroom talk. How much of it is true?

edition.cnn.com

Can you point me to any verified examples?

The nearest I've found is this, which is hardly the sort of thing most people have in mind when they raise this kind of concern:

Leeds prisoner used 'transgender persona' to rape vulnerable women

A "predatory" and "manipulative" transgender woman who committed multiple sexual assaults after being placed in a female prison was jailed for life.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Who decided that guys had to see each other pee, anyway?

Accountants, probably, since I would imagine that installing urinals is a less expensive undertaking, and more economical use of space, than is building separate stalls with individual bowls and cisterns.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Ok so, first why have gender segregated facilities at all, why not just go full unisex? Most such segregated facilities involve some degree of perceived vulnerability. Some people may be entirely comfortable in the presence of anyone but they are probably a minority. Some people are hugely uncomfortable even with just their own gender. But most are probably just comfortable enough in the company of their own gender. Surely part of the point of gender segregation in some settings is to make women feel more comfortable or safer than they would usually feel in the presence of men given the omnipresence of sexual harassment when men are around. Women may well feel defensive or vulnerable in the presence of men surely that is even more the case if they are in a situation where they may be partially or completely undressed?

Second part of this, is the assumption that someone in the female facilities is female. Regardless. The act of entering the female designated facility is a declaration of your self identity therefore there are no men in there only females. I don't believe that.

There are men in the world who are deeply nasty, who will abuse any system for any benefit, men who hate women. This gives them a weapon. By falsely self identifying as female they gain access to places they would not have had access to in the past (victory: man!)
Or if they are challenged for trying to gain access to such places they can cry foul!, Misgendering! which is apparently a crime now (victory: man!). The only people who will always lose out are women. If you think this will not happen, then you have a far kinder view of people than I have.

I understand the desire to allow people to just self-identify but there are no checks, there is no way to determine if the claim is true or if its someone seeking to abuse the system.

E.T.A.
To respond to Beebo's question "Are there any cases..." Yes. One that I have been able to find. Karen White. A prisoner in a male facility who got themselves transferred to a women's facility as they had begun render reassignment treatment since arriving at the prison. White had a history of sexual violence against women and children dating back 20 years. After being transferred White proceeded to commit further rapes on vulnerable inmates. Was Karen White genuinely a transgender person or were they using a claim to be transgender to gain access to vulnerable people ?

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

www.theguardian.com

We already enforce a lot of laws based on the idea of what a “reasonable” person would think, so why do changing rooms and bathrooms have to uniquely require a birth certificate? Situations that require papers and profiling get used against the less privileged all the time.

A “reasonable” person, IMO, would want people to use the room they “look like” and a predatory man who hasn’t transitioned is just going to look like a man.

It’s also a myth that women are not abusers. What you actually have in a segregated space is a greater likelihood you are equally matched with your opponent. We could therefore equally say that random adults shouldn’t be mixing with unattended young children in dressing rooms (and that would do more for safety). With so many people of either sex acting as parents and caregivers, places like airports and rest stops really need to include a genderless room.

I can’t remember when I was last in a space where people were willing to undress in front of any strangers, they always hid in a toilet or shower stall and doing anything else would have been weird. Since this is the instinct of many people, it would be better to design that way anyway.

Nothing made me more nervous than a highway rest stop where the doors were cut so low that if you stood up, your head and shoulders would be fully visible. At 2 a.m. alone, nobody could stop a man from walking in there and simply looking over the door. These penal inspired designs that are stripping away our privacy are a far greater loss of safety than the occasional, usually undetected trans person.

 

[Tigger]

Yes, I know, women can be abusers but some kinds of criminal behaviour are far less common

Everyone seems to default to bathrooms but they are just one of an endless list of gender segregated facilities. Bathrooms, spas, saunas, care homes, hospital wards, prisons, public baths. So while individual gender neutral facilities work fine for bathrooms, at least functionally, some other types of facilities also have other aspects, such as a socialising aspect.

While laws often talk of a reasonable person, activists usually take a starker black and white approach, which takes us back to people screaming "Bigoted TERF!" at women who's only crime is to say "Im not OK with this"

 

[Tigger]

On a different track as I don't want to spend the rest of my life discussing just the one topic....

Among the other pardons, a murderer who's family donated over $20,000 to the governor and a guy who cut a woman's head off because why wouldn't you pardon them?

Kentucky ex-governor pardoned child rapist because victim's hymen was intact

Matt Bevin under avalanche of criticism after pardoning 428 people in final days of term including two convicted child rapists

www.theguardian.com

 

[Brenda Archer]

Yes, I know, women can be abusers but some kinds of criminal behaviour are far less common

Everyone seems to default to bathrooms but they are just one of an endless list of gender segregated facilities. Bathrooms, spas, saunas, care homes, hospital wards, prisons, public baths. So while individual gender neutral facilities work fine for bathrooms, at least functionally, some other types of facilities also have other aspects, such as a socialising aspect.

While laws often talk of a reasonable person, activists usually take a starker black and white approach, which takes us back to people screaming "Bigoted TERF!" at women who's only crime is to say "Im not OK with this"

To be not okay with it, you’d first have to be aware of it. You’re not going to be aware a fully transitioned trans woman is in your hospital ward. The nurses know, but you won’t.

The problem with laws like the new ones in some US states isn’t about safety for women. It’s about “papers please” in what is already a prison flavored society. If you can’t have enough empathy to try to imagine what that could do even to AFAB women, I can’t explain it to you.

The prison state’s laws are not for us, they are not for our protection and we can’t rely on them for safety in unusual situations. Instead you’re going to see women who fail to be femme enough being asked for papers. If you think the police won’t do this, consider that citizens of the wrong color already have to carry papers to prove they’re citizens (and sometimes get arrested anyway).

In a fascist state I’m in greater danger from male police in an isolated bathroom than I am from a suspected trans person. Even if I’m not the suspect.

I’m putting you on ignore.

 

[danielravennest]

Accountants, probably, since I would imagine that installing urinals is a less expensive undertaking, and more economical use of space, than is building separate stalls with individual bowls and cisterns.

It's more complicated than just construction costs. There's a whole section in architectural design books on the subject, as far as number of people in a building and the optimal restroom facilities to provide for them. With modern rules, you also have to account for handicapped stalls, which are larger than standard ones. In turn, the facilities need water supply and waste disposal, supplies, and regular cleaning. So better facilities both have operating costs and subtract from usable space for the building's main purpose. Somewhere in there there is an optimal balance of comfort and cost.

But in respect of urinals vs stalls, not only do they take up less space, but they are faster to use, since you don't undress and redress. The proportion to install is then based on physiological needs and experience. A bar, for example, may need a higher proportion of urinals.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

There are men in the world who are deeply nasty, who will abuse any system for any benefit, men who hate women. This gives them a weapon. By falsely self identifying as female they gain access to places they would not have had access to in the past (victory: man!)
Or if they are challenged for trying to gain access to such places they can cry foul!, Misgendering! which is apparently a crime now (victory: man!). The only people who will always lose out are women. If you think this will not happen, then you have a far kinder view of people than I have.

One question I have: What stops a cisgendered man from entering the women's facilities now? If a man is that bent on committing a sexual assault on vulnerable women, a sign on the door is not going to be much of a deterrent.

 

[Casey Pelous]

One question I have: What stops a cisgendered man from entering the women's facilities now? If a man is that bent on committing a sexual assault on vulnerable women, a sign on the door is not going to be much of a deterrent.

So, where you live, the restrooms don't have sentries doing a quick crotch check?

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

If anyone wants to relive that thread, here it is: Gender is more than just genitals - let's fight! - SLUniverse Forums

 

[Casey Pelous]

If anyone wants to relive that thread,

Nope.

 

[Free]

If anyone wants to relive that thread, here it is: Gender is more than just genitals - let's fight! - SLUniverse Forums

/me hi-fives Kamilah on his drama-maintenance skills

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Nope.

 

[Clara D.]

I think they are afraid that a cis male would pretend to identify as a woman so that he could go rape them in showers or bathrooms. I'm sure I remember reading some BS like that

It also ties into the conservative theory that any non-cisgendered person is a child molester by default.

Beck likes to also regurgitage his "U WANT THEM AROUND UR KIDS ZOMG" thing.

 

[Clara D.]

On a different track as I don't want to spend the rest of my life being willfully clueless and pretty much ignoring anyone else's input about just the one topic....

/fixed

HTH. HAND.

Some of us are "uncomfortable" with risking a beat-down by police or getting shot because we needed to pee.

Discrimination isn't over, it's just shifted focus. Keep in mind that your being "uncomfortable" with TG people in your restroom is the same discomfort felt in early-mid 20th century about using the same drinking fountain as "colored" people.

If you don't like being called a duck, it's probably best to not to repeat a duck's talking points.

 

[Lady Darnk Juniorette]

 

[Lady Darnk Juniorette]

Also...

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Also...

Nah, you called the champagne bottle on those other threads.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

E.T.A.
To respond to Beebo's question "Are there any cases..." Yes. One that I have been able to find. Karen White. A prisoner in a male facility who got themselves transferred to a women's facility as they had begun render reassignment treatment since arriving at the prison. White had a history of sexual violence against women and children dating back 20 years. After being transferred White proceeded to commit further rapes on vulnerable inmates. Was Karen White genuinely a transgender person or were they using a claim to be transgender to gain access to vulnerable people ?

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

www.theguardian.com

And alongside the case of Karen White, let us also consider that of the late Vikki Thompson, and her experiences as a trans woman in an English men's prison:

Trans prisoner Vikki Thompson 'let down by prison, NHS and family'

An inquest jury concludes it was right transgender prisoner Vikki Thompson was held in a male jail.

www.bbc.co.uk

The issue of how HM Prisons should treat trans inmates involves all sorts of complex problems involving real individuals in real sets of circumstances, and it really isn't susceptible to generalisations like this.

ETA: Some prison inmates are extremely dangerous and manipulative people, and some are extremely vulnerable. Some are both. Trans people are no different from other inmates in that respect.

ETA 2 -- hang on, I've just re-read The Guardian article to which this is linked, and the assertion that

White had a history of sexual violence against women and children dating back 20 years. After being transferred White proceeded to commit further rapes on vulnerable inmates.

grossly misrepresents the facts as presented in the article.

Because of the nature of White's prolific criminal history, the exact chronology of the different offences for which she fell to be sentenced, and when, at different times, different offences came to light, is difficult to follow, or I find it so, but what is clear is that the only crimes White committed against other women prisoners while in custody were comparatively minor considering the other offences she'd committed:

White was first arrested in August last year [the article was published on 11 Oct 2018, so 2017] when she threatened to kill her 66-year-old neighbour and repeatedly stabbed him with a steak-knife in Mytholmroyd, West Yorkshire.

While on remand at HMP New Hall White began gender realignment, wearing a wig, makeup and false breasts.

The court heard she became friendly with another female inmate. But on September 13 last year while in a queue for medication she pressed herself against the victim in a sexual manner.

The matter was reported to police and another prison assault came to light. Another inmate told how she was in the prison workshop with White when the defendant was making “inappropriate comments”.

White then grabbed her hand and put it on the defendant’s left breast with the words: “Oh look, they are not real ones.”

While in New Hall White wrote a letter to a woman. It was this letter that sparked an investigation as the woman returned the letter saying that she did not want any further correspondence from White to be sent to her.

Prison authorities and police began to investigate and the woman, in her 20s, told police White had violently raped her five or six times between January and December 2016. Police then also investigated the 2003 rape.

The connection between the rapes (these rapes, anyway) and the women's prison is that they came to light while White was an inmate there, not that she committed them while there (or, indeed, while living as a woman).

 

[Lady Darnk Juniorette]