2020 U.S. Presidential elections

Beebo Brink

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I’ve had to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils before, but I never felt I had to hide the fact that’s what I was doing. I could freely and openly discuss all the reasons I don’t like X along with all the reasons why I am voting for them anyway.

Is that not all Cristalle is trying to say?
Yes, and I'd say most of us agreed with her. The first time, the second time, the third time, the fourth time, and then we all got just a little bit tired of the conversation. There is virtually no argument with what Cristalle is saying; our objection is her unrelenting focus on a non-issue. Biden is who we have. The rest of us have vented and moved on.
 

Beebo Brink

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To be honest, I actually think its the reason for the lack of plan/response on Covid. The more chaos, the more noise and terror - the easier it is for him to declare martial law and for us to slip into a dictatorship come November.
No. You're giving Trump too much credit for long-range planning, which is not something of which he is capable. He IS capable of creating chaos out of his general incompetence, then finding a way to mine that chaos for his immediate needs.

Trump is always focused on the moment and that's actually part of what makes him so dangerous. He really doesn't care about long-term repercussions. It's simply not relevant to him.
 

Pamela

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Yes, and I'd say most of us agreed with her. The first time, the second time, the third time, the fourth time, and then we all got just a little bit tired of the conversation. There is virtually no argument with what Cristalle is saying; our objection is her unrelenting focus on a non-issue. Biden is who we have. The rest of us have vented and moved on.
I would agree except I have always liked Biden despite his negatives, because I just think he has a heart. Whatever bad decisions he has made I don’t believe were made out of malice or indifference. This election for me is not about holding my nose. I could not be more enthusiastic about the Biden coalition. It is exactly what this country needs — someone all of us except white nationalists can coalesce around to defeat authoritarianism.

After getting our current president so disastrously wrong I am overjoyed that we the people got it so right this time ( as George Will says in the Post today for the second time this week.).

I don’t go about evangelizing, tho, because I am fine with people holding their noses, as long as they vote, and if they don’t plan to do that then they are hopeless.
 

Cindy Claveau

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No. You're giving Trump too much credit for long-range planning, which is not something of which he is capable. He IS capable of creating chaos out of his general incompetence, then finding a way to mine that chaos for his immediate needs.
I have a 2-year old terrier who also operates on impulse without planning. Of course, Molly isn't running for President.

After 3 or 4 different books on Trump have belabored his pathological impulses toward vengeance and "hitting back", this should be very common knowledge by now, but then I pretty much live in the Dem bubble and refuse to even read anything the mentally-damaged shits on the Right have to say.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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I'm sick to death of being offered one old white dude over another old white dude - or even a middle aged white dude over a different middleaged white dude.

But I don't think Biden is the lesser of two evils - he didn't asked to be born a white dude, and yes, he is a real, caring person [he wears a mask, that's a good start].

Also, I ignored a certain person when she -kept- on attacking Warren, because I got tired of the BS. Otherwise, I don't dislike her, and I'll prolly unignore if there is any sign she's stopped pushing propaganda.
 

Beebo Brink

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Honestly Biden being a bit bland may be a benefit.
He casts a wide net that can pull in Republicans against Trump. And for this particular moment in history, that may be exactly what we need. I see this upcoming election as a non-partisan group facing off against fascism. Maybe we can return to normal partisan-based elections in 2024.
 

Eunoli

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No. You're giving Trump too much credit for long-range planning, which is not something of which he is capable. He IS capable of creating chaos out of his general incompetence, then finding a way to mine that chaos for his immediate needs.
No. I'm giving credit to Vladimir Putin and whoever else is "handling' Trump in the US. So far this morning he's threatened to "go in and clean out" Portland (after the Governor came to a deal with Pence to pull Feds out) and has issued an order to pull troops out of Germany, while stating that he didn't bother to talk to Putin about the bounties on Americans. If he wore a giant, neon sign that said "RUSSIAN ASSET" it couldn't be any more glaring.

Edited to add this tweet from a few minutes ago:

 
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Cristalle

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I think I’m missing some nuance in this latest exchange, which isn’t uncommon because I’m not well versed in American politics.

I’ve had to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils before, but I never felt I had to hide the fact that’s what I was doing. I could freely and openly discuss all the reasons I don’t like X along with all the reasons why I am voting for them anyway.

Is that not all Cristalle is trying to say?

Edit to add for transparency, I voted Liberal which is essentially a vote for Trudeau. I’m not a fan of his, but strategically it was the best decision in my riding and a much better option for Prime Minister than Scheer. Provincially I went NDP for similar reasons. I could still make a list of what I don’t like about both candidates and parties I voted for. Is that gauche?
It is gauche, Pancake, because they say it's not but in practice they take the attitude that any negative thing you say helps Trump therefore don't say anything negative. You can post someone's actual record and they think, regardless of what you say your intent is, that you're just trying to stump for Trump. See below.


I find it hilarious you think this is me scolding you lmfao. This is me thinking you are part of the problem and disingenuous. Again I will state...I don't give 2 fucks about what upsets YOU about Biden's record....he is the only fucking choice. If you are fine with bleating about his record to make those who don't want to vote for him stay home...that is on *you*. I cant believe anyone can see the dumpster fire that is this country right now and not be shouting from the mountains that trump has to go.
You and others keep reducing it to "well he's all we have." I'm more than aware that he's all we have. But if people are just going to roll over for him and not make demands of him, as seems to be the inclination when I hear gaslighting garbage, then we are going to get worse than Trump and probably in four years' time.

People need to demand better from him, to make people like me WANT to vote for him. He's not winning because people love his policy stances. He's winning because people are practically dragging themselves over glass to get rid of Trump. In the polling, Bernie won on all the issues (if people bothered to read the crosstabs, but often ovelooked by the media precisely because Bernie was winning). Biden won only because one influential block of people thought that he had a better chance to unseat Trump and then everyone else bandwagoned. Okay, fine, he's it - but if people just give him their vote without making any demands, we are going to get a shit sandwich for the next term. I would like to WANT to vote for him, as opposed to merely voting against Trump. But indications are that he is not going to rise to the occasion, and meet the crisis with solutions at the right scale. I want YOU and people like you to demand better of him, not scold me or people like me because I complain when he shows his shit instincts, like his people did this week with the platform. Make the candidate better and put pressure on him, not force conformity and tell us to eat the shit sandwich, trying to gaslight us into liking it.

I would add that prior to Biden it was ANY democrat whose first name didn't start with Bernie, including links to hot Russian propaganda on all of them. It led to our first VVO locked thread and it wasn't pretty.
This shows the inanity of this whole debate. So I advocated for my guy and showed the reasons why I questioned other candidates. It wasn't a big Kumbaya festival, I did care about who won and I went to the mat for him. BFD.

What Russian propaganda? Oh, anything you don't like, got it. It's easy to blame Russia instead of the fact that people just had a decades-long dislike for Hillary Clinton that resulted in her loss, plus she actually did some sketchy/unsavory things to validate that position. This is not to say that Russia doesn't do things to mess with us, but they're rank amateurs compared to the stuff we've done across the world.

I'm sick to death of being offered one old white dude over another old white dude - or even a middle aged white dude over a different middleaged white dude.

But I don't think Biden is the lesser of two evils - he didn't asked to be born a white dude, and yes, he is a real, caring person [he wears a mask, that's a good start].

Also, I ignored a certain person when she -kept- on attacking Warren, because I got tired of the BS. Otherwise, I don't dislike her, and I'll prolly unignore if there is any sign she's stopped pushing propaganda.
And this dehumanizing bullshit, right here. "A certain person," she who shall not be named. Acting like I'm fucking Beetlejuice, as if saying my name three times will call down some crazy demon. I don't need you to un-ignore me, but it would be nice if you'd treat me like a normal human being instead of a piece of dirt that you need thick gloves to pick up.

Aribeth doesn't think that Biden is the lesser of two evils purely on him being a white dude, not the whole host of deleterious policy choices going on. Endless war, mass incarceration, the bankruptcy bill, the shitty health care situation and so on. But me saying those things - things that Biden is an integral part of the problems that exist today and that it fucking offends me that we are rewarding him with the presidency - that makes me an idiot. No wonder this country is going to hell. It's just going to go slower for four years, and then we will probably get some bullshit like Ivanka Trump and then people will wonder how that happened.
 

Grandma Bates

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I think I’m missing some nuance in this latest exchange, which isn’t uncommon because I’m not well versed in American politics.

I’ve had to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils before, but I never felt I had to hide the fact that’s what I was doing. I could freely and openly discuss all the reasons I don’t like X along with all the reasons why I am voting for them anyway.

Is that not all Cristalle is trying to say?

Edit to add for transparency, I voted Liberal which is essentially a vote for Trudeau. I’m not a fan of his, but strategically it was the best decision in my riding and a much better option for Prime Minister than Scheer. Provincially I went NDP for similar reasons. I could still make a list of what I don’t like about both candidates and parties I voted for. Is that gauche?
Well Pancake, as you can see there is a bit of history to all this. That last post is a nice summary of what we have seen. The large majority of people here do not like former VP Biden, and that includes myself for all the reasons that have been said. For the most part they are true, except for some of the nutty conspiracy nonsense that have been slipped in through some videos, but we have been assured that was only done for the entirely noble cause of making sure all points of view are being heard and no other reason. Speaking for myself, I thought there were some very good candidates this year, and Biden was at the very bottom of my list.

Unfortunately, Pancake, the progressive choices ended up splitting the vote, and all of them dropped out. (Long angry, tirade about purity that is not associated with this topic was deleted....) The result is we got the least progressive candidate. Frequently when that candidate is discussed a couple of people feel the need to remind us why he is not progressive and has done real harm. For the most part I agree with this, and most of us recognize the candidate's deficiencies. Despite that we keep getting these wholly negative laundry lists including a lecture and a tut-tut as to why we should be weary, and the delivery implies a wise and worldly point of view that us dipshit morons most certainly lack. (personally I would rather commiserate about the situation rather than be reminded how bad it is.)

What I find so aggravating is the focus on the presidency. As others have said, notably including Isabeau's explicit statement, is that what really matters is promoting progressive voices in the other governmental chambers. In large part the folks who complain about the presidential race are mostly quiet about this. For example, very little has been said about important victories like Jamaal Bowman's upset primary win. Nothing is going to get done without that support, and it does not matter who is the president. Without such support a more progressive president, and most certainly Senator Sanders in particular, would be a lame duck the day after being sworn in.

What I find most ironic about this bizarre focus on the President, is that former VP Biden is being criticized for his long record of getting things done (even if I do not like them) while not being the President. It is a bit discordant to be continually scolded about how we will have to "demand" more from Biden because of what he will do as President. That is nonsense. Biden is going to do what he is going to do, and as President we have little to no power to impose anything on him. The only way change will come is from pressure from the legislative branches, and that will require a focus on supporting people like Mr. Bowman or Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, and other progressives. This constant drumbeat of being told that Biden will not do anything we want is silly because it is beside the point and a silly distraction. The issue is not what Biden will do but who we should turn to for leadership. Constantly tearing down Biden does nothing and is a tedious distraction.

Anyway, Pancake, this has gone on way too long, and I am droning on about silly political nonsense when we have too much of that in every aspect of our lives right now. I just wanted to say I love how your letting your hair out, and you look wonderful. Also, you are doing great under difficult circumstances, and keep moving forward!
 
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Jolene Benoir

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No. I'm giving credit to Vladimir Putin and whoever else is "handling' Trump in the US. So far this morning he's threatened to "go in and clean out" Portland (after the Governor came to a deal with Pence to pull Feds out) and has issued an order to pull troops out of Germany, while stating that he didn't bother to talk to Putin about the bounties on Americans. If he wore a giant, neon sign that said "RUSSIAN ASSET" it couldn't be any more glaring.

Edited to add this tweet from a few minutes ago:

I bet they will still be there come election day causing mayhem which will depress the votes in those cities. I can see elderly and others not wanting to go out and vote in such an atmosphere.
 

Jolene Benoir

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This shows the inanity of this whole debate. So I advocated for my guy and showed the reasons why I questioned other candidates. It wasn't a big Kumbaya festival, I did care about who won and I went to the mat for him. BFD.

What Russian propaganda? Oh, anything you don't like, got it. It's easy to blame Russia instead of the fact that people just had a decades-long dislike for Hillary Clinton that resulted in her loss, plus she actually did some sketchy/unsavory things to validate that position. This is not to say that Russia doesn't do things to mess with us, but they're rank amateurs compared to the stuff we've done across the world.
Here we go with this fucking shit again. You want to replay that thread over and over again? You are a useful idiot. Period.

I encourage those who haven't already seen the shit Cristalle spews to go read that thread (granted it's long) but I'm not going to take the time now to re-refute her garbage. I, and many others, have already taken far too much time to do so the first time around.
 

Eunoli

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Please don't. This thread is about important things. Can we keep it on topic?
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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Well Pancake, as you can see there is a bit of history to all this. That last post is a nice summary of what we have seen. The large majority of people here do not like former VP Biden, and that includes myself for all the reasons that have been said. For the most part they are true, except for some of the nutty conspiracy nonsense that have been slipped in through some videos, but we have been assured that was only done for the entirely noble cause of making sure all points of view are being heard and no other reason. Speaking for myself, I thought there were some very good candidates this year, and Biden was at the very bottom of my list.

Unfortunately, Pancake, the progressive choices ended up splitting the vote, and all of them dropped out. (Long angry, tirade about purity that is not associated with this topic was deleted....) The result is we got the least progressive candidate. Frequently when that candidate is discussed a couple of people feel the need to remind us why he is not progressive and has done real harm. For the most part I agree with this, and most of us recognize the candidate's deficiencies. Despite that we keep getting these wholly negative laundry lists including a lecture and a tut-tut as to why we should be weary, and the delivery implies a wise and worldly point of view that us dipshit morons most certainly lack. (personally I would rather commiserate about the situation rather than be reminded how bad it is.)

What I find so aggravating is the focus on the presidency. As others have said, notably including Isabeau's explicit statement, is that what really matters is promoting progressive voices in the other governmental chambers. In large part the folks who complain about the presidential race are mostly quiet about this. For example, very little has been said about important victories like Jamaal Bowman's upset primary win. Nothing is going to get done without that support, and it does not matter who is the president. Without such support a more progressive president, and most certainly Senator Sanders in particular, would be a lame duck the day after being sworn in.

What I find most ironic about this bizarre focus on the President, is that former VP Biden is being criticized for his long record of getting things done (even if I do not like them) while not being the President. It is a bit discordant to be continually scolded about how we will have to "demand" more from Biden because of what he will do as President. That is nonsense. Biden is going to do what he is going to do, and as President we have little to no power to impose anything on him. The only way change will come is from pressure from the legislative branches, and that will require a focus on supporting people like Mr. Bowman or Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, and other progressives. This constant drumbeat of being told that Biden will not do anything we want is silly because it is beside the point and a silly distraction. The issue is not what Biden will do but who we should turn to for leadership. Constantly tearing down Biden does nothing and is a tedious distraction.

Anyway, Pancake, this has gone on way too long, and I am droning on about silly political nonsense when we have too much of that in every aspect of our lives right now. I just wanted to say I love how your letting your hair out, and you look wonderful. Also, you are doing great under difficult circumstances, and keep moving forward!
I don't know - entirely too many people bought into the propaganda that Warren [Warren, like WTF?!] and other progressive -female- candidates were all corporate shills and that only Bernie can save us now. Except even he's now said that Biden is our best hope.

And yeah, Biden was the bottom of my list too [well, after Beto dropped out, anyway], but he's still not a horrible choice.
 

Pancake

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Anyway, Pancake, this has gone on way too long, and I am droning on about silly political nonsense when we have too much of that in every aspect of our lives right now. I just wanted to say I love how your letting your hair out, and you look wonderful. Also, you are doing great under difficult circumstances, and keep moving forward!
/me double checks the masking tape covering the webcam hole on the laptop
 

Jolene Benoir

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Please don't. This thread is about important things. Can we keep it on topic?
Good luck with that. She's already spouting "What Russian propaganda". Next up her links to whack jobs. The other thread was very important too, as we were attempting to discuss all of the democratic candidates. It didn't and doesn't matter to her agenda.
 
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Clara D.

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Good luck with that. She's already spouting "What Russian propaganda". Next up her links to whack jobs. The other thread was very important too, as we were attempting to discuss all of the democratic candidates. It didn't and doesn't matter to her incessant beating of a dead horse.
Fixed. :p
 
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bubblesort

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I do agree that this thread has been going in circles. Probably because neither side is really campaigning much, in a traditional sense, so we don't have speeches or campaign rallies to discuss, so everybody just goes after each other. It is kinda silly.

There have been some new developments, though, that might warrant fresh discussion:

The DNC decided on a platform, that does not include single payer, or legalizing mairjuana, and probably missed out on a lot of other things I think they should be fighting for.

I think the DNC is treating our votes as an inferior good. In economics, a good can be complimentary, rival, normal, luxury, etc. One type of good is the inferior good, which is a good that is not the best quality, but it is very cheap. Price is the inferior good's main selling point. As a consumer's income rises, they tend to buy less inferior goods. Think about ramen. If you aren't a broke college student, or somewhere near that income level, you probably don't buy a lot of ramen (unless you are a weeb or something). There aren't a lot of billionaires eating ramen for dinner every night. The DNC treats our votes the way a billionaire treats ramen. As the party leadership accumulates more and more money, they seem to want our votes less and less. They purchase elections, instead of earning votes. At least, that is what they are trying to do.
 
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