2020 Democratic Primary

[Free]

Do you Bernie haters hate him so much you would stay home in the general if he’s the nominee? Do you really believe Biden is so poorly resourced that Sanders has to drop out now to save him?

If the situation was reversed with Sanders 300 delegates ahead and exceedingly likely to win the primary, we would be hearing the same arguments for Biden to drop out sooner rather than later, and you know that.

 

[Anya Ristow]

A lot of people don't like single payer because it takes away choice.

They are mistaken. Millions of them will figure this out in the coming weeks.

One more futile time. Health insurance is not health care. It is a key. If you have it, congratulations. You can unlock the fucking health care door.

M4A is an unlocked fucking door.

Health insurance is unnecessary.

By "choice" you mean you get a key and other people don't. You think you chose your key. When you lose your job you will know otherwise.

Don't be stupid. Choose the unlocked fucking door.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I didn't hate Bernie, hell, i don't know, but I am still angry that he joined the race when there was ALREADY A GOOD PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE in Warren. Once more for those in the back. There was already a good progressive candidate in Warren.

There was no reason for Sanders to run when he did, there is no reason for him to be a rude asshole to anyone, especially women and/or people of colour who ask him any question and expect an actual answer in response.

I'm also angry at Biden for running. There was already good moderate candidates in the field. But I don't see anyone accusing people of hating Biden, even when people [like myself] said there were circumstances where I would consider not voting for him [very specific, we'll see what happens].

In fact, in general, I'm mad at about 90% of the men who decided to run for this election cycle for the same reasons I'm angry at Bernie. All of them could have been decent enough human beings to throw their influence behind any of the women or poc candidates that were already in the running, instead they all showed a rampaging level of sexism or racism, or even just narcissistic ego and threw themselves into a clown car.

Except Bloomberg - I think he just did it to troll Twitler.

 

[Brenda Archer]

What Biden actually said was,

Biden: Single-Payer Healthcare System Would Not Solve Coronavirus Crisis At All

In an interview Monday with MSNBC's Yasmin Vossoughian, former VP Joe Biden explained why the events of the coronavirus pandemic so far have not made him reconsider his position opposing single-payer health care. MSNBC, YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN: I do have one final question for you, because as you've...

www.realclearpolitics.com

That is, he thinks that the federal government has a strategic role to play in determining what kind of health care provision is needed in each particular community and in how it is to be delivered, and will be investing federal funds in making that happens.

He thinks, too, that the federal government has a duty to try to prevent future public health emergencies, and this will include both restoring the CDC's pandemic preparedness activities and in funding medical research into vaccines against this sort of virus when monitoring shows a new threat is on the horizon.

Those points, he thinks, are not directly addressed by points of detail about who is responsible for the cost of medical treatment when it's necessary.

In determining health care policy, a government has to look at health care provision as a whole.

How the delivery of patient care is funded is one important part of a much larger picture, and concentrating only on paying for patient care to the exclusion of all else is a big mistake -- in the UK, both Labour and the Conservatives would support Sanders on Medicare for All, but there are still very big and important differences between the two parties when it comes to how the NHS as a whole is funded and managed, and what its various budgets should be.

You've got to start with what you already have, decide where you want to get to, and then what each step on the route of health service reform should be, and it's by no means clear to me why a single-payer health service has to be the first step in the US, so long as a very early target is to make sure everyone's treatment is covered somehow.

It’s certainly true that the federal functions we had under Obama need to be restored, but any candidate who is not Trump will be willing to do that.

The for-profit system is not centrally managed. In an American context, bailouts and subsidies (including a public insurance option) are much more possible than any kind of nationalization, which will be resisted beyond emergency measures.

For example, one of the large HMOs managing Medicare Part B in Arizona is Mercy Care, which is Catholic. So you can find a Medicare patient spending Catholic managed money in a Catholic system hospital. Nationalizing the whole thing the way Ireland just did is not on the radar.

That means more private financial decisions and less government regulations drive the decisions of hospital systems.

I still don’t see anything from Biden that doesn’t look like a corporate bailout? He’s not arguing for an increased role for the federal government in decision making in the long term.

Am I missing something?

 

[Brenda Archer]

If the situation was reversed with Sanders 300 delegates ahead and exceedingly likely to win the primary, we would be hearing the same arguments for Biden to drop out sooner rather than later, and you know that.

And he should ignore them.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It’s certainly true that the federal functions we had under Obama need to be restored, but any candidate who is not Trump will be willing to do that.

The for-profit system is not centrally managed. In an American context, bailouts and subsidies (including a public insurance option) are much more possible than any kind of nationalization, which will be resisted beyond emergency measures.

For example, one of the large HMOs managing Medicare Part B in Arizona is Mercy Care, which is Catholic. So you can find a Medicare patient spending Catholic managed money in a Catholic system hospital. Nationalizing the whole thing the way Ireland just did is not on the radar.

That means more private financial decisions and less government regulations drive the decisions.

I still don’t see anything from Biden that doesn’t look like a corporate bailout? He’s not arguing for an increased role for the federal government in decision making in the long term.

Am I missing something?

I have no idea what else he's said.

I was simply trying to respond to your summary by comparing what you said you thought he was suggesting with the verbatim text of the interview, and suggesting that your precis of his remarks was perhaps not particularly helpful.

ETA: What are Bernie Sanders' proposals for dealing with Arizona if he's elected?

Off the top of my head, I would hope the federal government would concentrate on developing medical centres that complemented the existing provision in Arizona by offering specialisms that the government considered were not adequately provided for by the existing hospitals.

 

[Anya Ristow]

And he should ignore them.

It wouldn't happen. And if it did, he should ignore them.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I didn't hate Bernie, hell, i don't know, but I am still angry that he joined the race when there was ALREADY A GOOD PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE in Warren. Once more for those in the back. There was already a good progressive candidate in Warren.

There was no reason for Sanders to run when he did, there is no reason for him to be a rude asshole to anyone, especially women and/or people of colour who ask him any question and expect an actual answer in response.

I'm also angry at Biden for running. There was already good moderate candidates in the field. But I don't see anyone accusing people of hating Biden, even when people [like myself] said there were circumstances where I would consider not voting for him [very specific, we'll see what happens].

In fact, in general, I'm mad at about 90% of the men who decided to run for this election cycle for the same reasons I'm angry at Bernie. All of them could have been decent enough human beings to throw their influence behind any of the women or poc candidates that were already in the running, instead they all showed a rampaging level of sexism or racism, or even just narcissistic ego and threw themselves into a clown car.

Except Bloomberg - I think he just did it to troll Twitler.

Americans gonna American. It’s certainly awful, but it seems to me that people are either white evangelical voters or so afraid of them that voting for women or POC didn’t seem “realistic.”

Castro endorsed Warren and neither one had a chance because Americans still take bigotry for inevitability.

If Biden is the nominee, I will vote for him. This is because although I am not a conservative like Biden is, at least he is not a fascist.

But I don’t have to like it. We are way past the point where things could have gone well. We’re more at the point where things could deeply and profoundly break.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I would honestly have preferred Biden stay out so that Sharrod Brown would have run. He is a well spoken, passionate blue collar liberal who could carry the rust belt while campaigning on progressive ideas. He didn’t say Biden was why he didn’t run, but right after he made his decision was when Biden announced.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I have no idea what else he's said.

I was simply trying to respond to your summary by comparing what you said you thought he was suggesting with the verbatim text of the interview, and suggesting that your precis of his remarks was perhaps not particularly helpful.

ETA: What are Bernie Sanders' proposals for dealing with Arizona if he's elected?

Off the top of my head, I would hope the federal government would concentrate on developing medical centres that complemented the existing provision in Arizona by offering specialisms that the government considered were not adequately provided for by the existing hospitals.

I don’t expect the government to develop medical centers or engage in any other kind of hospital nationalization in urban areas.

There’s a clinic system providing care to poor urban populations that maybe could be expanded to include a few hospitals in remote places, but I haven’t seen anyone suggest it yet, although I think necessity would allow them to get away with it. This could serve as a foot in the door.

But I can’t see the government trying to manage anything directly in the existing private hospital systems even under M4A, which is the leftmost option on the table. Even M4A is basically a type of subsidy or bailout.

Things will have to break really badly to get us any permanent nationalization. If Biden is just throwing money at existing hospitals under the excuse of an emergency, that’s a bailout. Private ownership of the hospital systems and their decisions would remain in place.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I don’t expect the government to develop medical centers or engage in any other kind of hospital nationalization in urban areas.

There’s a clinic system providing care to poor urban populations that maybe could be expanded to include a few hospitals in remote places, but I haven’t seen anyone suggest it yet, although I think necessity would allow them to get away with it. This could serve as a foot in the door.

But I can’t see the government trying to manage anything directly in the existing private hospital systems even under M4A, which is the leftmost option on the table. Even M4A is basically a type of subsidy or bailout.

Things will have to break really badly to get us any permanent nationalization. If Biden is just throwing money at existing hospitals under the excuse of an emergency, that’s a bailout. Private ownership of the hospital systems and their decisions would remain in place.

I've already posted a link to the text of what Biden said, and explained what I think it means.

However, you clearly think he meant something very different by his words.

We seem to have read the same text and come to very different conclusions about its meaning, so I don't think we're going to be able to take this much further, I'm afraid.

 

[Salome]

You’re now arguing something that can be quantified, so I expect you to produce a statistic and not just your family experience, because the plural of anecdote is not data.

We don’t have any way of projecting these statistics right now so even if I chased my tail to find you the info you’d scoff them off and say “everything is different now” as you’ve been doing whenever anyone makes a point you don’t like. —HOWEVER— Prior to this about 15% of the population was in the range where a $1000 deductible would be a significant burden. Even if *all of them* had taken such a plan, they’d still be a small minority. We know about 1/3 of patients get referred to a specialist each year. You’re already at 4,5%. Most of those visits would be a $50ish co-pay or maybe some tests that would eat a bit into a deductible. So of those how many are going to need an MRI or extensive uncovered testing or equipment that eats up an entire deductible? I’m not going to waste time digging for those numbers, but even if it’s every single one 95% of the population — the vast majority — would not be in that situation. Of course even a small percent is a lot of people and we’ll have to find ways to help them and make it even easier, no one is debating that. But Biden's plan will help the vast majority. That’s not a controversial statement. If you insist a plan has to promise more to get your vote, fine, but that doesn’t make anything I said untrue or ”out of my depth” or whatever the fuck else you‘ve been natting on about.

As for the current crisis, no one knows what the landscape will look like in a few months. So spare me your tea leaves.

Saying “tough,” doesn’t keep hospitals in low income areas from closing....

I’m no longer responding to shit you argue that no one’s said. It’s tedious. If you’re just going to rant, then don’t quote me as if you're pretending to respond to things I say.

But you still haven’t offered any specifics and I’m also not seeing Biden offer any specifics beyond what sounds like a corporate bailout.

Biden’s plan has many specifics, no one is going to have all of them. Of the ones that do, few of them will resemble what the actual legislation ends up looking like. However, if you’re asking me why I specifically don’t think M4A is the right option that would be because lots of countries don’t have it as their UHC, because I don’t believe it‘s practical as a transition from our current system, I don’t believe a new system would hold up to court challenges even if it passes, and because despite the fact that Americans want healthcare the majority don’t want to be forced into it if it means their taxes go up. And the “shrinking” 7 in 10 that want to keep their current insurance that you seem to think dont matter aren’t dead yet and still vote. I‘m old enough to remember what happened the midterms after we trucked through passing legislation for the greater good with the hope that voters would thank us later.

You seem deeply devoted to making sure every last person in the minority of the Dem electorate should get to vote for Bernie’s zombie campaign, but don’t seem to care what actual votes and voters of the general population that we need to keep us in office want.

It’s not just emergencies that use up the deductible, but since it’s never happened to someone you know, of course it doesn’t exist and I’m making it up.

Yeah. No one I know has ever needed tests or equipment. Keep fucking that chicken.

Block away, I’m never going to care about Twitter fights I wasn’t there for.

”The campaign staff of my preferred candidate acting like trash doesn’t happen if I don’t see it.”

Here’s your buyer’s remorse.

For someone that whines over casual comments remarking on your behavior, you sure don’t mind assigning motives to others, do you? Funny that. I have *never* hidden the fact that I voted Sanders or that I regret it, so why you think this is some big mystery you’ve cracked, I have no idea.

I don’t have to like Biden, mostly because he’s way, way to the right of me.

No one cares if you like Biden. It’s the constant bad faith, double standards and propaganda people object to. Eeyore all you fucking want. Like anyone could stop you.

It’s too early to tell the late voting states the choice has been made for them, but this is what it amounts to, if the primary is effectively shut down now.

It’s a primary. The race being decided before the late voting states have a say is not a unique situation. But Bernie always has to be the exception because he’s so damn special, I guess. He’s polling underwater and all his best chances to pick up delegates are behind him. But, sure, let’s let’s masturbate his ego a few more times. That’s what’s important now.

I don’t believe it’s simply Bernie’s fault Clinton didn’t get a stronger majority.

...aaaand we’re back to shit I never said.

If you’re afraid of the same thing happening to Biden, what kind of lack of confidence is that?

My concern isn’t for Biden. It’s for down ballot races. Do you need a diagram or something?

It would mean he was not really a strong candidate,

Look, Biden wasn’t my guy but he‘s winning in a landslide and the most popular president in my lifetime hasn’t even dipped a toe in to help him campaign yet. Sanders has lost 83% of counties he won last time. Strong candidate isn‘t the argument you want to be making here.

You’re headed back toward the ad hominem nonsense again.

If I wanted to ad hominem you, I‘d do it. and you’d know it, so fuck off with this false victim routine. It doesn’t work on me.

 

[Salome]

Why is it Bernie’s job to save the down ballot and not Biden’s if he’s such a strong candidate?

What the fuck are you talking about? Weaker candidates get out of the way so their people and resources can move on to help down ballot efforts.The stronger candidate with majority support then focuses on the general. Its not Biden’s responsibility as the clear preferred candidate to concede, its Bernie’s.

It’s not 2016. Show me why Biden is a stronger candidate than Clinton was. Because we’re in serious trouble if, even now, he is not.

Seriously, stop quoting me and acting like you’re responding to shit I say. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Clinton won, by any sane measure. Yes, I said it, the EC system is crazy.

 

[Salome]

Clinton won, by any sane measure. Yes, I said it, the EC system is crazy.

Not just any sane measure. All the measures. We had unprecedented voter suppression and the manipulation/interference of a hostile foreign government, but in addition to the GOP refusing to investigate and protect the integrity of the vote, we’ve been sabotaged by the Left insisting the DNC was rigging things and HRC was “just a bad candidate.” So instead of fighting the real problems, we had to waste DNC energy and resources on a “unity commission” to kiss Bernie’s ass.

 

[Salome]

For comparison to how this matches up against the last time he lost:

 

[Brenda Archer]

I've already posted a link to the text of what Biden said, and explained what I think it means.

However, you clearly think he meant something very different by his words.

We seem to have read the same text and come to very different conclusions about its meaning, so I don't think we're going to be able to take this much further, I'm afraid.

I don’t hear him saying he’s going to nationalize or take the decision making process away from hospitals as they exist. Whether that’s good or bad will depend on things we can’t foresee, but it doesn’t create a new federal role.

 

[Brenda Archer]

We don’t have any way of projecting these statistics right now so even if I chased my tail to find you the info you’d scoff them off and say “everything is different now” as you’ve been doing whenever anyone makes a point you don’t like. —HOWEVER— Prior to this about 15% of the population was in the range where a $1000 deductible would be a significant burden. Even if *all of them* had taken such a plan, they’d still be a small minority. We know about 1/3 of patients get referred to a specialist each year. You’re already at 4,5%. Most of those visits would be a $50ish co-pay or maybe some tests that would eat a bit into a deductible. So of those how many are going to need an MRI or extensive uncovered testing or equipment that eats up an entire deductible? I’m not going to waste time digging for those numbers, but even if it’s every single one 95% of the population — the vast majority — would not be in that situation. Of course even a small percent is a lot of people and we’ll have to find ways to help them and make it even easier, no one is debating that. But Biden's plan will help the vast majority. That’s not a controversial statement. If you insist a plan has to promise more to get your vote, fine, but that doesn’t make anything I said untrue or ”out of my depth” or whatever the fuck else you‘ve been natting on about.

As for the current crisis, no one knows what the landscape will look like in a few months. So spare me your tea leaves.


I’m no longer responding to shit you argue that no one’s said. It’s tedious. If you’re just going to rant, then don’t quote me as if you're pretending to respond to things I say.


Biden’s plan has many specifics, no one is going to have all of them. Of the ones that do, few of them will resemble what the actual legislation ends up looking like. However, if you’re asking me why I specifically don’t think M4A is the right option that would be because lots of countries don’t have it as their UHC, because I don’t believe it‘s practical as a transition from our current system, I don’t believe a new system would hold up to court challenges even if it passes, and because despite the fact that Americans want healthcare the majority don’t want to be forced into it if it means their taxes go up. And the “shrinking” 7 in 10 that want to keep their current insurance that you seem to think dont matter aren’t dead yet and still vote. I‘m old enough to remember what happened the midterms after we trucked through passing legislation for the greater good with the hope that voters would thank us later.

You seem deeply devoted to making sure every last person in the minority of the Dem electorate should get to vote for Bernie’s zombie campaign, but don’t seem to care what actual votes and voters of the general population that we need to keep us in office want.


Yeah. No one I know has ever needed tests or equipment. Keep fucking that chicken.


”The campaign staff of my preferred candidate acting like trash doesn’t happen if I don’t see it.”


For someone that whines over casual comments remarking on your behavior, you sure don’t mind assigning motives to others, do you? Funny that. I have *never* hidden the fact that I voted Sanders or that I regret it, so why you think this is some big mystery you’ve cracked, I have no idea.


No one cares if you like Biden. It’s the constant bad faith, double standards and propaganda people object to. Eeyore all you fucking want. Like anyone could stop you.


It’s a primary. The race being decided before the late voting states have a say is not a unique situation. But Bernie always has to be the exception because he’s so damn special, I guess. He’s polling underwater and all his best chances to pick up delegates are behind him. But, sure, let’s let’s masturbate his ego a few more times. That’s what’s important now.

...aaaand we’re back to shit I never said.


My concern isn’t for Biden. It’s for down ballot races. Do you need a diagram or something?


Look, Biden wasn’t my guy but he‘s winning in a landslide and the most popular president in my lifetime hasn’t even dipped a toe in to help him campaign yet. Sanders has lost 83% of counties he won last time. Strong candidate isn‘t the argument you want to be making here.


If I wanted to ad hominem you, I‘d do it. and you’d know it, so fuck off with this false victim routine. It doesn’t work on me.

How many times do I have to repeat that I’ll be voting for Biden if he’s the nominee in the general?

And with that, you’re really on ignore. Whatever you’re mad about, I didn’t cause it by becoming a Bernie supporter after Castro dropped out. I’m not even going to read the rest of this post. You’ll be the only person on the forum I have on ignore.

Bye.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Do you Bernie haters hate him so much you would stay home in the general if he’s the nominee? Do you really believe Biden is so poorly resourced that Sanders has to drop out now to save him? How is this supposed to convince me Biden is going to suddenly come up swinging against the Christofascist machine and have some chance of winning?

Actual Left voters can’t do anything about Trumpists masquerading as Bernie Bros and it can only help us if they finally get discouraged and leave.

Wait. First you put words in my mouth implying that I've said you are one of those Bernie or Bust/Trump voters, etc..Now you are accusing me of hating Bernie so much that I'd stay home.

Good lord, putting words in my mouth, making assumptions about whether or not I hate Bernie, making assumptions about what I may or may not do should he get the nomination despite my well-known stance of which you are quite aware.

You've done everything in your power to not have a good faith discussion about this. I'm quite done with you.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Wait. First you put words in my mouth implying that I've said you are one of those Bernie or Bust/Trump voters, etc..Now you are accusing me of hating Bernie so much that I'd stay home.

Good lord, putting words in my mouth, making assumptions about whether or not I hate Bernie, making assumptions about what I may or may not do should he get the nomination despite my well-known stance of which you are quite aware.

You've done everything in your power to not have a good faith discussion about this. I'm quite done with you.

Fine, put me on ignore.

I’m up to two ignored now, it’s just not worth the stress. I’ve tried to speak as precisely as I can when everyone is on edge and it’s just not working.