2020 Democratic Primary

Lady Darnk Juniorette

⚧🎃💀Chaos Agent Forum Lord💀🎃⚧
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
2,395
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Dec 2012
SLU Posts
9113
Oh lord, now I got bubblesort agreeing with me.

Hey bubblesort, did you know that if you don't want to vote for biden you could also not vote for trump????

You know you could just go Independent or not vote????

Hell it'd make more sense than voting for trump cuz your guy didn't get the nom. It'd still be shitty and help trump but it'd make more sense as a protest.
 
  • 1Thanks
  • 1LOL
Reactions: Brenda Archer and Free

bubblesort

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
1,990
Most of us have taken issue with his inappropriate touching, but that has been in his history and he does it to both men and women, boys and girls. Many of us dont like the way he’s blown off his touchy-feely behavior as if it’s a joke at times. For the majority of the people who post in this thread he wasn‘t the desired candidate and a male candidate in general wasn‘t the ideal for just that reason.
In case you haven't heard... the inappropriate touching you refer to is actually sexual assault.

Tara Rede's story.
7 other women's stories. (from a year ago)

Say what you want, but I don't think the Hillary/Warren/Kloubachar wing of the party is going to go along with this at all. These women's stories are being blacked out right now, but sooner or later cancel culture will latch on to this, and more women will come forward. You can't silence all of them. People like Weinstein, Cosby, and Epstein have all tried, and it never works out in the end, once the stories start to circulate.
 

Salome

Vermicious Knid
Joined
Oct 21, 2018
Messages
892
Location
Carmen Sandiego's Pocket
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
Fuck I don't remember
If the next round of primaries goes strongly to biden then I'll concede to the point that he should drop out.
Biden doesn’t need to make a strong showing. He can coast. Bernie has to win 65% of the remaining delegates. But, sure, we’ll pretend the guy doing no outreach who has alienated huge pockets of the party needs to get his ass kicked a few more times.Focusing on down ballot races can wait. It’s only the Senate and any hope we have to enact policy. What’s that against stroking Bernie’s ego and letting his family cash a few more checks.
 
  • 1Screwdriver
Reactions: bubblesort

bubblesort

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
1,990
Oh lord, now I got bubblesort agreeing with me.

Hey bubblesort, did you know that if you don't want to vote for biden you could also not vote for trump????

You know you could just go Independent or not vote????

Hell it'd make more sense than voting for trump cuz your guy didn't get the nom. It'd still be shitty and help trump but it'd make more sense as a protest.
Seriously? When you wrote this, I didn't even write anything yet, I just hit an emoticon to be nice to you.

You're crazy, LOL
 

Lady Darnk Juniorette

⚧🎃💀Chaos Agent Forum Lord💀🎃⚧
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
2,395
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Dec 2012
SLU Posts
9113
Seriously? When you wrote this, I didn't even write anything yet, I just hit an emoticon to be nice to you.

You're crazy, LOL

No, but seriously did you read the other part? Cuz that's the part that matters.

I didn't bring it up before after reading it because it was a time after it was orignally posted and it'd seem weird to bring it up but you're agreeing with me brought it back to my mind so I thought i'd ask.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
Could be but he could have written his current health page on his website as though nothing has happened.
Agreed.

This is why I’m asking for something better. It’s really time for the presumptive nominee to start signaling plans, even if they are an admitted work in progress.

Just saying “but the other guy is worse” does not give the specifics that decision makers (and individuals) need to have some sense of where the future is going.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
No, it isn’t. It’s about as common as I think. We’re talking about the percentage for whom $500-$1000/year is a significant barrier to health but who also make more than $18k/year. It’s not the vast majority of people.

I‘ve been in and out of hospitals since birth. My parents are hitting their 70’s, both with chronic illness. I know exactly what we all spend and have spent and when. The idea that everyone like me drops $1k on their first doctor visit each year unless they avoid doctors except for prescriptions is wrong, even as things are now. Both Sanders and Biden and everyone else‘s UHC plans want to lower costs and coming down hard on over-billing. Working to get rid of those practices, along with the rampant fraud tied to them in the system will have huge impacts that negate many of these concerns.
The plural of anecdote is not data.

While it’s great that neither you nor your parents have ever had an expensive specialist visit, that doesn’t make it some kind of rare outlier.

Part of the problem in talking about healthcare in this country is that few people have any view of the system outside of their own personal experiences.

Putting aside the rest of everything else that is faulty in this section, the fact remains that a $1000 max deductible, even if it were the same for everyone (which it won’t be) isn’t going to cause the system to struggle. If all medical facilities had to worry about was $1k/year per patent that would be an unfathomable improvement over uncompensated care in this country. So much so that it’s hard to understand what you’re arguing.
I’m talking about “barriers to care,” which is a specific term of art with a meaning. Patients who can’t get a diagnosis, get management of chronic illness, or get preventative healthcare then wind up in the ER, which is far more expensive to the system than regular outpatient healthcare would have been.

If you want to spend a few thousand in one visit, get a concussion, or try to get enough imaging and testing to rule out a cancer, etc., etc. The untreated person shows up eventually and now it’s a five or six digit problem instead of a four digit one.

And that’s not even looking at the long term effects on society of all this untreated disease.

You got me, I‘m a secret Republican. Cat‘s outta the bag.
You don’t sound like you’ve made any real effort to understand what’s driving the healthcare voters.

Or, maybe, I was saying that in the most common situation where people eat up a deductible unexpectedly all in one shot (emergency) they are still guaranteed care as part of a larger point. Nah. I’ve been duped by GOP talking points. That makes more sense.
You cannot get adequate healthcare in the ER, and the cost to the system of people going there for healthcare is really high. This is such a basic point, I think you’ve waded here into a subject outside your experience.

No one’s saying otherwise. People with pre-existing conditions will choose the plan that accommodates this best. As they do now. Which is a huge improvement over the way it used to be for people like me and many I know where being born with a pre-existing condition used to mean you had zero options.
I went without healthcare for decades. No one on the Dem side is trying to put you back into this bad situation, including Bernie.

No. But don’t let that stop you from building the straw man you want to argue against instead of the things I actually addressed.
I honestly can’t tell what your point is, beyond “all Bernie supporters must be shot down,” because buyer’s remorse, or because Twitter fights, or something.

No one is saying otherwise. You asserted a $1k deductible was unreasonable for people in a certain segment. I pointed out that the taxes on that segment for M4A would be higher than any $1k deductible. The rest you’re inventing to argue against yourself.
Anya got this point, and I agree.

Everyone and everything are going to need a bailout. As far as how that shifts the majority’s culture and understanding later in the year, I don’t pretend to know the future and I don’t have that kind of faith in the general electorate. I think we still have about a decade before healthcare as a human right becomes the default and everything else is considered fringe.
This isn’t a reason to demonize the VoteBlueNoMatterWho voters who are still going to vote for Bernie, as if that was going to hand the general or the downticket to the Republicans. I have not seen anyone produce hard data to support this assertion, only claims that *Democrats* will stay home if they hear the word “socialism.”

No one said otherwise and all the candidates are promoting some form of UHC, so you’re just arguing with yourself again here. My point was that the ACA has already weathered SC challenges so improving upon its framework seems safer to me than trying to implement a system that tosses out the ACA and starts over to face a whole new slate of challenges under the SC we’re going to be enduring for the next decade.
Nobody on the Dem side is trying to destroy the ACA and then leave us with nothing.

All the plans provide good details. No one is going to be able to provide every single detail. I‘ve read all the plans put out during the primary. All of them have some whatifs and concerns regarding implementation. Practically speaking we all know so much of it depends on down-ballot races that half of all conversations about it are moot. Which is why demonizing any candidate over details is unproductive.

No Dem is arguing for denial of care, ffs. No Dem is calling chronic care special pleading. I’m done trying to address things you invent out of things I say.
You say this after hand waving away the effect of deductibles on blocking access to care, which is what I’m talking about when I’m talking about financial barriers to care: deductibles and other cost sharing.

How nice for you. Meanwhile, many of Sanders’ official campaign spokespeople and high profile surrogates spend their days on TV and social media saying that everyone that disagrees with their candidate‘s UHC plan is trying to kill poor people or doesn’t care about them. It’s nice that you get to opt out of how that affects the national discourse, but during an election cycle it matters. A lot. It’s how we end up with our civil rights heroes getting booed by a bunch of asshats and other problems. It hinders progress in multiple areas, not just healthcare.
If I’m not part of a Twitter flamewar, I’m not going to be aware of the details of it, and I’m certainly not guilty of whatever went on there. There are plenty of voters who are not on Twitter.

The idea that messaging doesn’t matter is long gone. One candidate has convinced his followers that advocating for anything anything other than M4A makes you a cartoon villain. Every Dem candidate is trying to move us into universal healthcare. The differences are who thinks which methods are more responsible and practical to get us there.
Everyone is not on Twitter.

Republicans and their empire of propaganda exist. I understand none of us like it, but it doesn’t make them any less there. Acting like we just get to do whatever we want and ignore them sounds good, but it doesn’t change reality.
We are not going to be able to control the Republicans by electing Biden, if we don’t also get the Senate and as much of the down ticket ad possible. He does not have any special powers to control today’s fascist Republicans, and he cannot, by himself, get us “back to normal.”
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
And I will just add that in both of their plans, Biden and Sanders, like most people discussing healthcare in America, are solving the wrong problem.

Granted, access to coverage is an important issue. The costs of deductibles and copays is also a national embarrassment and a barrier to care for many Americans.

But what people need is not coverage, it is actual healthcare. And our system has been built on the assumption that not everyone gets healthcare. If we gave everyone access to coverage today, our healthcare system would still be a gigantic clusterfuck. The time it takes even for people with good insurance to find a GP and make appointments would become infinitely worse with expanded coverage.

Our healthcare system is overloaded with specialists and under staffed with primary care physicians. We don't graduate enough people going into what is the among lowest paying areas of medicine despite the critical importance of it. And if you can increase the number of doctors, they are in the wrong places. Consolidation, competition, the influence of HMOs, and cost of infrastructure has left much of our healthcare in very large hospital complexes clustered in urban areas. Rural clinics are in financial distress, squeezed by local poverty and the high cost of services. Big centers are more efficient but smaller clinics and hospitals are far more accessible.

Biden's plan includes some increase in funds for rural hospitals and clinics. I have not seen that mentioned in Sanders' plan. Neither address training or incentives for primary care physicians or mental health professionals. Both leave the healthcare delivery system intact, creating bottleneck to access that there is no incentive to fix.

Fucking around with M4A and Obamacare is just moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. We need doctors and clinics for people to access if that increased access is to become meaningful.
This is really true.

Maybe it’s time to admit for-profit healthcare is not profitable enough in remote and underserved regions, and start building out a nationalized system anywhere there are serious gaps.

A nationalized system offering a decent income to primary care doctors and PACs should tend to increase their number, along with total student loan forgiveness.

These ideas only nibble around the edges of the problem, but hopefully would not be so threatening to the status quo that they get shot down.
 

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
3,174
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
We are not going to be able to control the Republicans by electing Biden, if we don’t also get the Senate and as much of the down ticket ad possible. He does not have any special powers to control today’s fascist Republicans, and he cannot, by himself, get us “back to normal.”
I want to respond to this portion of your post. Nobody can control today's fascist Republicans. Not Biden, not Bernie. Your argument does apply to Bernie too, ya know? I don't think that some Bernie supporters understand this; they seem to think that somehow Bernie is going to be able to control them as they make the argument that Biden cannot.

Only one of them is going to be the democratic nominee and it isn't Bernie, so what exactly is the alternative to electing Biden? I think you know the answer to that.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Shiloh Lyric

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
23,986
SLU Posts
18459
He repeated his opposition to single payer on MSNBC yesterday.
He was asked
I do have one final question for you, because as you've been seeing, our health care system seems to be crumbling underneath this crisis. There is not enough. There is not support for the healthcare system, and there's not enough support for the American people inside of the health care system.

Are you now reconsidering your position when it comes to single payer health care?
and he replied
Single payer will not solve that at all. The thing that is needed is, for example, we have a whole number of hospitals that are being so stretched, including rural hospitals, they're going to need more financing.

That doesn't come from a single payer system. That comes from the federal government stepping up and dealing with the concerns that they have -- the reimbursement that they're going to get. How they're going to be able to move forward and how they're going to be able to make -- provide all the needed help that are needed in their communities.

This is an opportunity to look at reconstructing the healthcare system in a way that, in fact, can respond more rapidly and more -- and more -- and more effectively to these kinds of crises, because it's going to come again.

We should be spending -- and we are spending a great deal of time and effort finding a vaccine, finding a way to -- that we can deal with preventing these diseases further down the road.


He then went on to discuss reassembling the Pandemic Response Unit set up by Obama and himself and disbanded by Trump.

I think that's a fair point -- that the public health crisis caused by the pandemic has revealed, and will continue to reveal, glaring inadequacies in US health care provision quite apart from the question of who pays for patient care at the point of delivery, and that whoever wins in November needs to address those inadequacies and gaps in the light of the situation then.

Obviously, "how will I pay for it?" is a huge concern for both people in such very different places as both NYC and rural Louisiana who fear they will need treatment for the virus, but there's also the even greater concern of "regardless of whether I can pay for it or not, will there be sufficient hospital beds, ventilators and medical staff available locally to provide it?"

On its own, having a single payer health service doesn't solve the problem of providing and funding a system that is capable of providing high-quality health care to everyone who needs it, whatever their medical needs.

We've had one in the UK for the last 70 years, and we know that all too well -- if the taxpayer, through the government, is paying for the service, then the government has to concern itself with questions about building new hospitals, providing drugs and equipment for both new and existing therapies, ensuring adequate staffing levels and so on, along with providing community medical care by ensuring everyone has access to a local medical practice where they are registered with their own doctor (or team of doctors) whom they can see at short notice.

Additionally, all that, of course, will have to be considered in the context of all the other demands on government spending (unemployment, education, defence and so on), at a time the world economy will be completely trashed.

Having a state funded National Health Service like ours in the UK is a wonderful thing, and it's one of the main reasons I consider myself so fortunate to have been born in the UK and not the US.

However, having a state funded NHS doesn't, on its own, solve all the problems of health care provision -- it's a far better way of doing it than what you have in the US, but it's not sufficient -- and who pays for treatment at the point of delivery is only part of the overall problem of what the service should be like and how it should be managed and funded.

Someone has to decide, after all, how many operating theatres a hospital should have, and how they should be equipped and for what sort of specialisms they should be equipped, and do to that on a regional and national basis, and not just a local one.

Running such an undertaking is hugely complex -- the NHS is, or was at one point, the largest employer in Europe -- and it's something that can't be allowed to go wrong.

Furthermore, as with any undertaking of that size, effecting radical change is a massive task which demands huge amounts of time and money, particularly since you have to start your journey to where you want to be from the position in which you are at the moment, even though that's not, in an ideal world, where you'd want to start, and each part of the route involves careful planning and coordination.

It's so much bigger than simply "single payer or not" and I don't think many people in the US, not even Bernie Sanders, realise quite what replacing the US's profoundly flawed system of medical provision will mean.

Here's a specific question -- it's 2024, and I need an abortion. I live somewhere like Alabama or Georgia.

OK, because of President Sanders' reforms I won't have to worry about how I pay for it, but how do these reforms ensure I can readily obtain one locally, particularly if my local hospital is a religious foundation with theological objections to providing such treatment?
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
I want to respond to this portion of your post. Nobody can control today's fascist Republicans. Not Biden, not Bernie. Your argument does apply to Bernie too, ya know? I don't think that some Bernie supporters understand this; they seem to think that somehow Bernie is going to be able to control them as they make the argument that Biden cannot.

Only one of them is going to be the democratic nominee and it isn't Bernie, so what exactly is the alternative to electing Biden? I think you know the answer to that.

1. I have never been anything but VoteBlueNoMatterWho. This is true for most of Sanders’ supporters, and having to repeat this makes me wonder why you’re so sure Left people are Trumpists.

2. Most of Sanders’ well informed supporters do not expect him to control a fascist Republican Senate. They expect him to fight them, win or lose. But the claim that cooperation can tame a Republican Senate seems to get trotted out fairly often as a reason for voting for Biden, as if he’s worked with Republicans before but Sanders has not. Which isn’t even true, anyway.

These are all variations on “Bernie is a socialist and that will cost us the election,” for which we do not have data. We especially have no data that voting for Bernie in the primary would fatally wound Biden in the general. How much lack of confidence is that?

The current Republican Party is not the same as the one Biden worked with, in what is now a distant political past. We cannot get that past back, or pretend normal is coming back.

This is scary stuff, but attacking the messenger is of no use.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Anya Ristow

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
2,135
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
He was asked
and he replied



He then went on to discuss reassembling the Pandemic Response Unit set up by Obama and himself and disbanded by Trump.

I think that's a fair point -- that the public health crisis caused by the pandemic has revealed, and will continue to reveal, glaring inadequacies in US health care provision quite apart from the question of who pays for patient care at the point of delivery, and that whoever wins in November needs to address those inadequacies and gaps in the light of the situation then.

Obviously, "how will I pay for it?" is a huge concern for both people in such very different places as both NYC and rural Louisiana who fear they will need treatment for the virus, but there's also the even greater concern of "regardless of whether I can pay for it or not, will there be sufficient hospital beds, ventilators and medical staff available locally to provide it?"

On its own, having a single payer health service doesn't solve the problem of providing and funding a system that is capable of providing high-quality health care to everyone who needs it, whatever their medical needs.

We've had one in the UK for the last 70 years, and we know that all too well -- if the taxpayer, through the government, is paying for the service, then the government has to concern itself with questions about building new hospitals, providing drugs and equipment for both new and existing therapies, ensuring adequate staffing levels and so on, along with providing community medical care by ensuring everyone has access to a local medical practice where they are registered with their own doctor (or team of doctors) whom they can see at short notice.

Additionally, all that, of course, will have to be considered in the context of all the other demands on government spending (unemployment, education, defence and so on), at a time the world economy will be completely trashed.

Having a state funded National Health Service like ours in the UK is a wonderful thing, and it's one of the main reasons I consider myself so fortunate to have been born in the UK and not the US.

However, having a state funded NHS doesn't, on its own, solve all the problems of health care provision -- it's a far better way of doing it than what you have in the US, but it's not sufficient -- and who pays for treatment at the point of delivery is only part of the overall problem of what the service should be like and how it should be managed and funded.

Someone has to decide, after all, how many operating theatres a hospital should have, and how they should be equipped and for what sort of specialisms they should be equipped, and do to that on a regional and national basis, and not just a local one.

Running such an undertaking is hugely complex -- the NHS is, or was at one point, the largest employer in Europe -- and it's something that can't be allowed to go wrong.

Furthermore, as with any undertaking of that size, effecting radical change is a massive task which demands huge amounts of time and money, particularly since you have to start your journey to where you want to be from the position in which you are at the moment, even though that's not, in an ideal world, where you'd want to start, and each part of the route involves careful planning and coordination.

It's so much bigger than simply "single payer or not" and I don't think many people in the US, not even Bernie Sanders, realise quite what replacing the US's profoundly flawed system of medical provision will mean.

Here's a specific question -- it's 2024, and I need an abortion. I live somewhere like Alabama or Georgia.

OK, because of President Sanders' reforms I won't have to worry about how I pay for it, but how do these reforms ensure I can readily obtain one locally, particularly if my local hospital is a religious foundation with theological objections to providing such treatment?
While we have whole hospital systems controlled by churches, the question of whether a religious hospital can be made to give care it objects to, will be made by the Supreme Court. Any law to do otherwise from the Congress, or regulation from the Executive, is going to be dragged into court.

This is a really good argument for nationalizing enough healthcare that we don’t have regions dominated by only religious hospitals. It would be a way for Congress to do an end run around a Supreme Court that might decide to allow Catholic hospitals and evangelical legislatures to ban abortion, between them.

Biden seems to be hinting his version of support for the medical system is some type of bailout. But that’s so vague I can’t be sure. While so much of the system is still for profit, the role of government is limited to regulations and bailouts. If he has more in mind, I’m not seeing any concretes.

We don’t know yet when, or if, there will be a vaccine. It doesn’t make sense for Biden to present that as a fix. Fauci has said it’s possible corona will be a seasonal problem. The healthcare system we have now is not up to that.

It’s one thing to say healthcare reform is a huge task with many angles, but does that mean Biden should just throw money at the existing system and call it a day? That’s not sustainable.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Innula Zenovka

Salome

Vermicious Knid
Joined
Oct 21, 2018
Messages
892
Location
Carmen Sandiego's Pocket
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
Fuck I don't remember
While it’s great that neither you nor your parents have ever had an expensive specialist visit, that doesn’t make it some kind of rare outlier.
I don’t know a single person in my immediate family that hasn’t seen a specialist. I’ve been navigating the healthcare system since I was a child. The *vast majority* of people have not and do not. They see a specialist occasionally. No one is saying it’s a rare outlier and I’m tired of your bad faith nonsense.

I’m talking about “barriers to care,” which is a specific term of art with a meaning. Patients who can’t get a diagnosis, get management of chronic illness, or get preventative healthcare then wind up in the ER, which is far more expensive to the system than regular outpatient healthcare would have been.
Literally no one debates this. Binden’s plan slashes current barriers to care dramatically as does M4A. But no plan and no system in the world removes all barriers to care. Which is what you seem to be implying must be the case for a plan to be legitimate.

If you want to spend a few thousand in one visit, get a concussion, or try to get enough imaging and testing to rule out a cancer, etc., etc. The untreated person shows up eventually and now it’s a five or six digit problem instead of a four digit one.
Again, you’re ignoring the reality of my points to argue against your own straw men. No one said these things never happen. And, of course, they will be most frequent as people who had no coverage start to get covered. That’s the whole point. But we are talking about:
1. People living more than 138% above the FPL,
who
2. Chose plans with a $500-$1000 deductible they can’t afford
and
3. Need to spend that entire deductible first thing every year.

That is not the vast majority of people. Do we still have to help those people who find themselves in that circumstance? Of course. But there will always be people we have to tweak the system to help better.

You don’t sound like you’ve made any real effort to understand what’s driving the healthcare voters.
I‘m a healthcare voter, Brenda. I know plenty of people that are healthcare voters. Being a healthcare voter doesn’t mean you think M4A is the only option.

You cannot get adequate healthcare in the ER, and the cost to the system of people going there for healthcare is really high. This is such a basic point, I think you’ve waded here into a subject outside your experience.
No, you just keep arguing against shit no one’s said because it suits the points you want to make. No one said ERs were adequate healthcare. I said the situation where most people find themselves needing to unexpectedly use up a deductible was an emergency and no one was going to be denied care in that situation. Everything else is shit you’re inventing.

I honestly can’t tell what your point is, beyond “all Bernie supporters must be shot down,” because buyer’s remorse, or because Twitter fights, or something.
It’s interesting that you chose to highlight the point where I tell you to stop putting words in my mouth and pretending I’ve said the things you want to argue when I haven’t and turn it into me attacking Bernie supporters and Twitter fights. That manipulative shit right there is why I’ve been mostly blocking you.

This isn’t a reason to demonize the VoteBlueNoMatterWho voters who are still going to vote for Bernie, as if that was going to hand the general or the downticket to the Republicans.
Bernie is a worthless fuck. I loathe him. As for anyone that plans to vote for him, I cannot throw stones at that glass house. I fell for his grift, too. But I take issue with the racism, misogyny, propaganda, false information, and hypocrisy of him and his toxic campaign staff. And I will continue use to take issue with it.

I have not seen anyone produce hard data to support this assertion, only claims that *Democrats* will stay home if they hear the word “socialism.”
WTF are you talking about? No one’s staying home. If anything voting numbers are higher because people can’t wait to vote against Sanders. It hurts down ballot races because of the way resources get allocated before and after the primary across the party. A lot of things cannot happen until the nominee is set. Bernie knew this in 2016. He knows it now.

Nobody on the Dem side is trying to destroy the ACA and then leave us with nothing.
No one thinks they are. Which it why it was a dumb question to press Biden on. It’s even dumber to act like he was saying he’d veto M4A when what he was actually doing was assuring the huge number of voters who have pre-existing conditions he won’t sign any plan that fucks us. If he’s the nominee and we control both houses M4A would still never end up on his desk. It’s a bullshit question.

You say this after hand waving away the effect of deductibles on blocking access to care, which is what I’m talking about when I’m talking about financial barriers to care: deductibles and other cost sharing.
I didn’t hand wave. I explained that the proposed deductibles are (1) an incredible improvement over the current state of affairs, (2) don’t apply to the most vulnerable, (3) would not be not a barrier for the vast majority of citizens, and (4) that other plans impose a tax burden that is equal to or greater than the deductible burden. That‘s not hand waving. It’s reality.

Everyone is not on Twitter.
Good for you. Bernie’s surrogates and campaign staff are. The harm they cause doesn’t go away just because it’s on a format some people don’t participate in.

We are not going to be able to control the Republicans by electing Biden, if we don’t also get the Senate and as much of the down ticket ad possible. He does not have any special powers to control today’s fascist Republicans, and he cannot, by himself, get us “back to normal.”
And we are, once again, back to shit no one’s said but you apparently want to pretend someone did so you can make whatever point you think you’re making.
 
Last edited:

Salome

Vermicious Knid
Joined
Oct 21, 2018
Messages
892
Location
Carmen Sandiego's Pocket
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
Fuck I don't remember
I don't think that some Bernie supporters understand this; they seem to think that somehow Bernie is going to be able to control them as they make the argument that Biden cannot.
Acknowledging things like the fact that Republicans exist or voter suppression is killing our democracy or we’re in a new Cold War with hostile foreign nations manipulating our elections disrupts the narrative that everything is the fault of corrupt Democrats.
 

Jolene Benoir

Hello World
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
3,174
Location
Minnesnowta
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
Dec 2010
1. I have never been anything but VoteBlueNoMatterWho. This is true for most of Sanders’ supporters, and having to repeat this makes me wonder why you’re so sure Left people are Trumpists.

2. Most of Sanders’ well informed supporters do not expect him to control a fascist Republican Senate. They expect him to fight them, win or lose. But the claim that cooperation can tame a Republican Senate seems to get trotted out fairly often as a reason for voting for Biden, as if he’s worked with Republicans before but Sanders has not. Which isn’t even true, anyway.

These are all variations on “Bernie is a socialist and that will cost us the election,” for which we do not have data. We especially have no data that voting for Bernie in the primary would fatally wound Biden in the general. How much lack of confidence is that?

The current Republican Party is not the same as the one Biden worked with, in what is now a distant political past. We cannot get that past back, or pretend normal is coming back.

This is scary stuff, but attacking the messenger is of no use.
1. It gets incredibly tiring having to repeat that I did not say you were not "Vote blue no matter who". It is untrue of 15% of his supporters who will vote Trump. It is untrue of (I don't know the % of people who will write in Bernie or abstain from voting). But no matter. I DID NOT say you were one of those people.. Please do not imply that I have anymore. Stop putting words in my mouth.

2. No, what gets trotted out is that Bernie himself will have a "my way or the highway" attitude due to his own obstinacy that will possibly make it so that he won't be able to get much of what he wants done. He cannot give us M4ALL on his own. He cannot wave his hand and voila. Biden can equally be expected to fight the Republicans, so whether it is Bernie or Biden, they're going to have a fight on their hands.

Biden IS going to be the presumptive nominee barring something very unusual happening. I'm not ruling that out due to the fact that the primaries have been severely interrupted and that there are going to be a whole lot of people who don't vote in them who would have previously.