2020 Democratic Primary

[Salome]

Fair Weather Progressives: “The Democrats keep going to the center for votes. They’re sellouts that don’t care about change.”

Same People: “What? We don’t get to just takeover? Enjoy Trump, motherfuckers. You're not getting my vote!”

Youth Vote: “We’re the future, you fucking neolib Boomers.”

Same Kids: “Wait...the vote was yesterday?”

It’s really not so hard to figure out why actual progressives have to work and compromise with less ambitious agendas and embrace more responsible candidates. But, sure, it’s just about identity politics. It has nothing to do with people that shrug off their convictions at the drop of a hat to pretend they have no responsibility for their inaction.

 

[Soen Eber]

I am stating exactly what I think, that people try to discredit me and don't bother engaging on the substantive argument.

What substantive argument? I haven't been paying attention. Also, I have not been discreditng you.

Why else would it matter? Why bring it up? Why does who I am and my background matter if we're just talking about ideas?

Uh ... I haven't been involved in all that so I really don't have an answer to all those questions, sorry.

Imagine the response if I was a white man.

I wasn't aware of your race when I posted. Remember: not paying attention. All I'm aware of was you were getting a lot of push back.

 

[Cristalle]

What substantive argument? I haven't been paying attention. Also, I have not been discreditng you.


Uh ... I haven't been involved in all that so I really don't have an answer to all those questions, sorry.


I wasn't aware of your race when I posted. Remember: not paying attention. All I'm aware of was you were getting a lot of push back.

Context matters. You jumped on the bandwagon to insult me when you were not even paying attention. Thanks. That was super useful.

 

[Salome]

It must be exhausting playing the victim at every matinee.

 

[Soen Eber]

Context matters. You jumped on the bandwagon to insult me when you were not even paying attention. Thanks. That was super useful.

Yeah,. I was upset because a lot of people I respect were having trouble with you. But ... that was prejudicial and ... that's not cool. I do have a history of being balanced and even-minded, and standing up against others here when they're piling on against some one.

I would like to start fresh just in case there was something people missed and to make my own opinion, not being one of the crowd. I'm sorry, I should not have started out like that.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

I am stating exactly what I think, that people try to discredit me and don't bother engaging on the substantive argument. Why else would it matter? Why bring it up? Why does who I am and my background matter if we're just talking about ideas? Imagine the response if I was a white man.

I will take this one. You brought up your race in response to someone else assuming that you were "whitesplaining". Fair enough and you were absolutely correct to do so, however, your experience being an immigrant (remember I did not know long you have been here and, absolutely, you are an American) may make your outlook upon the choices of older, black Americans very different than they, themselves, hold to be true, given their experiences.

You have tossed grenades at them, at every opportunity, as uninformed, willing to vote for a sellout and how an apparent charlatan (according to you) tell them to, and obviously hold no agency for themselves; that surely the only thing that must explain it all is that they just do what others tell them to do. They can't possibly have well-thought out reasons for their choices. They are clearly so very wrong and stand as an impediment to Bernie's goals.

I am telling you that who we are, our experiences in life, shape and mold us, alongside our thoughts about our experiences. No matter how many times you (and Trumpers, like to do that as well) call it "identity politics" this holds true. Obviously, what I am not saying is that people are absolutely tied to their past, but that it often informs some of our deepest held beliefs about things such as equality, justice and our place in the world which can translate to our political views and in whom we trust to forward our beliefs and quite frankly, Bernie hasn't inspired that trust in a pretty large segment of people.

You may not like their politics, but they've earned them with a lifetime of experience (particularly pre-civil rights era folks), dealing with white people, white voters, white politicians but it is theirs to hold without you belittling them as uninformed, sellout, "identity politics" voters.

You are not listening, in the slightest, to what they are telling you with their votes. Neither is Bernie when he still chases after that elusive Trump voter and continues to ignore those who have had feet on the ground for decades. It is incredibly insulting but hey, not surprising.

 

[Cristalle]

But here's the thing - Clyburn very obviously is more closely aligned with the sentiment of most African-American Dem voters by far, so calling him a "sellout" is just vindictive name-calling and doesn't make sense unless the vast majority of black Dems are also "sellouts".

Black Dems who support Biden have made their thought processes clear in commentaries but they've mostly been ignored by Sanders' camp. Ignoring them is in fact something of a trend; South Carolina was the first time in the primary that African-American Dems as a voting bloc had a say at the polls, but their contribution was completely invisible to the Sanders campaign, who decided that state's result was purely the fault of "the establishment being negative about Bernie". And that continued on Super Tuesday, with the opinions of legions of black voters in Alabama and Arkansas being dismissed or rather revised as the opinions of "white southern conservatives, not worth considering" instead.

Bernie's campaign has a (comparatively small) group of black voters who like his ideas, and they (the campaign) seem to think that proves there's nothing wrong with their approach or messaging. And then the primaries roll around showing an overwhelming majority of African-American voters backing Biden, and all they can do is scratch their heads and say "gosh I just don't understand it, they should love Bernie, he's offering free health care". Some of them, especially the vindictive wing of his online support, decided to call the majority of black voters in the country "low information" and claim that they're dupes who have fallen for media disinformation. But what I haven't seen so far is any attempt at introspection. Nobody wants to step back and say "Maybe this is happening because we've made some flawed assumptions about what most black voters actually want; maybe we should not have presumed that M4A somehow entitled us to the black vote without doing some ground research" for instance.

Clyburn is a leader, not just any other person. A well-connected, financially comfortable leader. It's not just vindictive name-calling. It's a documented fact that Clyburn is one of the biggest recipients of pharma money. Let's connect that fact to the real world: how has that benefited the people of South Carolina? If you can answer that, we can have a better discussion about Clyburn. And no, that doesn't make the majority of black voters sellouts. It makes them led astray by the people they trusted to work in their best interests.

I've read the commentaries and accept the reasoning. However, I don't agree with that kind of politics and I do not respect the leaders that have not fought for more for their people. I am not obligated to praise or respect people who choose to put up people who will harm this country. It's a bad decision. I'm not obligated to like it and they are not immune from criticism just because of who they are.

Bernie's campaign has been working in the black community but it's hard to overcome bandwagoning, which is what happened here. Bernie's campaign staff was 70% women and extremely diverse. Despite the whitest of white people and Latinos (overwhelmingly in the case of Latinos) voting for the real progressive - actual history and data by the time SC voted - they went with "what we know," and what we know is a man that has has actively harmed this community for decades, only blackwashed because he allowed himself to be second to a black president. And then too much of the country followed suit, because instead of using the power to lead the country and pick someone who actually had something to offer, they went with someone who offered what they've gotten for the last few decades: lip service and pocket lint. And on Super Tuesday, people voted for him when he couldn't be bothered to go to their state and ask for their votes. I agree with Antonio Moore that voting is a transaction, but people are getting next to nothing for their transaction. (Not completely nothing, but economically speaking, it's next to nothing).

As for the "low information" thing - In this thread, I have defended the people against the charge of being "low information." Some of them may be; but I perceive that they voted out of a fear and were misled by someone who benefits from this situation regardless of what happens to them. I have a hard time reconciling voting for Biden knowing his record, and I imagine the most vocal online critics feel the same. "Low information" from that point of view may be the most charitable interpretation to explain it, because I really can't. All I know, really, is that the media worked overtime to manufacture consent and here it is.

As for Bernie and what he has said on TV since, it's just spin. You know that other conversations are being had behind closed doors, do you really think that they're going to tell you what they're actually thinking?

 

[Beebo Brink]

The messenger and the message can be two separate issues. I like the message Sanders delivers, it's the messenger I have grave doubts about. And apparently I have a lot of company.

 

[Cristalle]

If you would prefer, then, why in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, need anyone to come up with better a agenda for them than one they could put together for themselves, bearing in mind that, at least according to Elie Mystal's article, they're acutely aware -- and probably more so than most, if not all, the candidates -- that this agenda will have to be one that they think white voters are prepared to accept, if the Republicans are not to win by default?

Every candidate should come with a platform, a suite of ideas, to offer people. Ideally, they should source from affected communities and in this case, he did. Loyalists here that love to hate on Bernie here don't say it, but he did. He's had people in these communities, doing town halls, etc. The racial justice plan had extreme input from the black community and is the most comprehensive of all of them. The Green New Deal goes out of its way to acknowledge racial justice, in that poor communities of color are frequently the targets of poisonous projects that white people NIMBY. Salty haters here act as if Bernie doesn't have support among black leaders, but that's not true. Cornel West has long been a Bernie supporter and here are 100 black thought leaders who endorsed Sanders:

A Step Away From Fascism and 'Toward a Brighter More Just Future': 100+ Black Writers and Scholars Endorse Bernie Sanders

The work they've done hasn't been reflected in the results, which is a shame.

 

[Cristalle]

I will take this one. You brought up your race in response to someone else assuming that you were "whitesplaining". Fair enough and you were absolutely correct to do so, however, your experience being an immigrant (remember I did not know long you have been here and, absolutely, you are an American) may make your outlook upon the choices of older, black Americans very different than they, themselves, hold to be true, given their experiences.

You have tossed grenades at them, at every opportunity, as uninformed, willing to vote for a sellout and apparent charlatan (according to you) tell them to, and obviously hold no agency for themselves. They are clearly so very wrong and stand as an impediment to Bernie's goals.

I am telling you that who we are, our experiences in life, shape and mold us, alongside our thoughts about our experiences. No matter how many times you (and Trumpers, like to do that as well) call it "identity politics" this holds true. Obviously, what I am not saying is that people are absolutely tied to their past, but that it often informs some of our deepest held beliefs about things such as equality, justice and our place in the world which can translate to our political views and in whom we trust to forward our beliefs and quite frankly, Bernie hasn't inspired that trust in a pretty large segment of people.

You may not like their politics, but they've earned them with a lifetime of experience (particularly pre-civil rights era folks), dealing with white people, white voters, white politicians but it is theirs to hold without you belittling them as uninformed, sellout, "identity politics" voters.

You are not listening, in the slightest, to what they are telling you with their votes. Neither is Bernie when he still chases after that elusive Trump voter and continues to ignore those who have had feet on the ground for decades. It is incredibly insulting but hey, not surprising.

My choice to respect or not has nothing to do with who they are, but what that choice means for this country.

I did not call them uninformed and I defended them against Bubblesort saying so.

They can have their politics, but they are not immune to criticism, especially if it harms the people of this country.

I have heard what they say; I am not obligated to like it. I only see this as long term harm, and that means that no, I'm unlikely to ever see eye to eye.

 

[Salome]

The messenger and the message can be two separate issues. I like the message Sanders delivers, it's the messenger I have grave doubts about. And apparently I have a lot of company.

You’re dealing with a person who respects and promotes voices like Jimmy Dore and vilifies civil rights leaders.

It is incredibly insulting but hey, not surprising.

Their insults don’t matter as long as they pretend civility.

 

[Cristalle]

I interpreted that to mean that white voters cannot be trusted, which I’ve been saying too, even though I’m white.

This is a vote for self interest if the voter doesn’t think Sanders is able or willing to overcome the white voters who will not share the American bounty with blacks.

And Biden was willing to play a supporting role in a Presidency that did benefit blacks.

So that much is self interest.

There’s a hopeful energy around the young* Sanders voters and older voters in general don’t have that optimism. I also think this worked against Warren. Even though she showed how she’d fund her plans, a lot of voters just couldn’t believe in it.

America is beaten down. I don’t think Biden can fix it, he’s just one person and we need to get past our reliance on figurehead leaders.

But I can see the Left policies most Americans really want are still a hard sell. I’m still supporting Sanders now (because I still support those policies) but I don’t see any Dems voting against their self interest in the contexts they are in.

It's just like the Republican tribalists. What's the matter with Kansas, but writ blue (or black).

I recall an analysis saying that they (Republican voters) ARE voting in their interests, but it was their social interests versus their economic interests. A similar dynamic is going on in the Democratic Party but it's not to avoid being equal to the people on the bottom of the societal totem pole.

What's missing here, for me, is this:

And Biden was willing to play a supporting role in a Presidency that did benefit blacks.

Objectively speaking, how did this presidency benefit blacks? They got visual representation, an inspirational ideal, something to which they can aspire. There is some value in that. To be fair, it's more than pocket lint. But the data is that black wealth was destroyed during this administration while a new class of white millionaires was created. Obama didn't do anything for the least of these. People have given the administration a pass, and along with it, Biden.

More opioid deaths came in droves, and suicides among veterans are at a high, 22 a day. Unemployment headline numbers are lower, but that's because of the gig economy. The gig economy where people have started liquidating their cars to earn a living arose. Life expectancy has gone DOWN for a segment of society. That did not start on November 9, 2016.

 

[Salome]

It‘s baffling how some people can pretend the GOP doesn’t exist while simultaneously parroting their talking points and keeping Dems from capitalizing on GOP self-destruction.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Every candidate should come with a platform, a suite of ideas, to offer people. Ideally, they should source from affected communities and in this case, he did. Loyalists here that love to hate on Bernie here don't say it, but he did. He's had people in these communities, doing town halls, etc. The racial justice plan had extreme input from the black community and is the most comprehensive of all of them. The Green New Deal goes out of its way to acknowledge racial justice, in that poor communities of color are frequently the targets of poisonous projects that white people NIMBY. Salty haters here act as if Bernie doesn't have support among black leaders, but that's not true. Cornel West has long been a Bernie supporter and here are 100 black thought leaders who endorsed Sanders:

A Step Away From Fascism and 'Toward a Brighter More Just Future': 100+ Black Writers and Scholars Endorse Bernie Sanders

The work they've done hasn't been reflected in the results, which is a shame.

But despite all this, the platform doesn't seem to have appealed to black voters, or at least older black voters, in sufficient numbers.

If there's nothing wrong with the platform, which you say was drawn up with a great deal of community involvement, presumably by people who knew, or thought they knew, what would appeal to black Democratic voters, then what went wrong?

Did the people drawing up the platform misjudge what black voters would support? Or was it the campaign that put them off, or the candidate himself, or what?

I'm not attacking you here -- I'm simply trying to understand what you think went wrong and how you think this might best be addressed in future.

I've read in various places that the campaign did a great deal of outreach work with Latinx voters, which seems to have paid off, as I think Sal has mentioned either in this thread or elsewhere.

Did the campaign take black voters for granted? Clearly someone dropped the ball somewhere.

 

[Salome]

 

[Brenda Archer]

It's just like the Republican tribalists. What's the matter with Kansas, but writ blue (or black).

I recall an analysis saying that they (Republican voters) ARE voting in their interests, but it was their social interests versus their economic interests. A similar dynamic is going on in the Democratic Party but it's not to avoid being equal to the people on the bottom of the societal totem pole.

What's missing here, for me, is this:

Objectively speaking, how did this presidency benefit blacks? They got visual representation, an inspirational ideal, something to which they can aspire. There is some value in that. To be fair, it's more than pocket lint. But the data is that black wealth was destroyed during this administration while a new class of white millionaires was created. Obama didn't do anything for the least of these. People have given the administration a pass, and along with it, Biden.

More opioid deaths came in droves, and suicides among veterans are at a high, 22 a day. Unemployment headline numbers are lower, but that's because of the gig economy. The gig economy where people have started liquidating their cars to earn a living arose. Life expectancy has gone DOWN for a segment of society. That did not start on November 9, 2016.

Obama was in practice too far to the right for me, especially internationally, so I can’t disagree with you there.

But the ACA was a huge victory for working people in general, although not everyone has been able to benefit directly.

The Obama presidency normalized black leadership for a lot of people, and while that can’t be quantified, a younger generation will benefit from it.

But there’s no doubt in my mind that the Obama presidency was so-so for working class people in general. If you see this primarily through the lens of class (which is what I’ve done), we’ve had nothing but conservatives in charge for a long time and they’ve tried to stop social democratic reforms.

I will defer to the debate going on among black people for/against Sanders. Personally, the narrative that Biden can do something Sanders can’t, given the current state of the Republican Senate, is not convincing enough to peel me away from the last standing candidate with my policy preferences.

 

[Salome]

 

[bubblesort]

I'm waiting for anyone at all to tell me...why Joe Biden?



Why?



Then what is it? Trust him...for what? To do...what?

Nobody here knows why. I've been asking the same thing, and the question just makes people angry, because they don't know what is appealing about Biden. I don't, either. At this point, though, I'm not looking for that answer here any more.

Also, black people didn't favor Biden in South Carolina. They favored Bernie. I've posted the numbers in this thread before. They clearly show that old people like Biden. In South Carolina, a lot of old people happen to be black. Same goes for the rest of the south. It's not about race, it's about age.

My best theory so far is that old people are just slow. As you get old, your mind starts to slip, and you start thinking things like medical bankruptcies aren't a problem, and we should make all college students into indentured servants to bankers for eternity, and private prisons are awesome, and civil rights are bad.

Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you, but that's all I got. I know there must be more to it than this, but these old boomers are inscrutable. Nothing angers them more than simple, direct questions like, "why?"

 

[Eunoli]

My best theory so far is that old people are just slow. As you get old, your mind starts to slip, and you start thinking things like medical bankruptcies aren't a problem, and we should make all college students into indentured servants to bankers for eternity, and private prisons are awesome, and civil rights are bad.

This is no more acceptable than racism or sexism.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

Clyburn is a leader, not just any other person. A well-connected, financially comfortable leader. It's not just vindictive name-calling. It's a documented fact that Clyburn is one of the biggest recipients of pharma money. Let's connect that fact to the real world: how has that benefited the people of South Carolina? If you can answer that, we can have a better discussion about Clyburn.

It's not about this one guy. It's about the black vote, that Sanders isn't getting. Of all the commentaries from Biden-supporting African-Americans I've read I don't think I've heard Clyburn's name more than once or twice.

And no, that doesn't make the majority of black voters sellouts. It makes them led astray by the people they trusted to work in their best interests.

Don't you see that either way of framing it robs them of their agency? Misinformed is misinformed. You can use language that implies the being misinformed isn't their fault - like describing them as having been "led astray" - but either way you're devaluing the majority black vote as flawed. The voters are intelligent individuals who are more than capable of informing themselves about the issues and reaching a valid position.

I've read the commentaries and accept the reasoning. However, I don't agree with that kind of politics and I do not respect the leaders that have not fought for more for their people. I am not obligated to praise or respect people who choose to put up people who will harm this country. It's a bad decision. I'm not obligated to like it and they are not immune from criticism just because of who they are.

That's your prerogative. I'm just saying, the reality remains - Bernie does not have the African-American vote, and he's not going to get it as long as he neglects to explore and appeal to their priorities. Lecturing them about what their priorities should be instead of trying to find out what they are, obviously - and very very predictably - has not worked. Denigrating the first black president as an ideological opponent whose legacy needs to be overcome rather than celebrated was an almost comical own-goal and certainly seems to have actively turned this demographic against Sanders. Doubling down on those mistakes with rationalizations isn't going to fix it.