2020 Democratic Primary

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Oh, yeah. Remind me again how that worked out for him?

Wanna see some fun!


It alllllll has to do with the narcissism.

 

[bubblesort]

And you believe Trump’s statements about...anything, really?

They are clearly both liars, I'm just trying to pick the least damaging liar between the two. Trump seems to lie when he says he wants war. Biden seems to lie when he says he wants peace.

Yes, what Obama negotiated was the memo of understanding I mentioned. Trump wants to exceed the MOU even when Israeli’s were insistent that they didn’t want this.

I didn't realize Trump wanted to exceed the MOU, LOL. That is crazy. If I consider that from a negotiation perspective... if he doesn't offer more he might be seen as not being any more pro-Israel than Obama. If he offers so much he knows the offer will be rejected, then he can say he tried to do more for Israel but they refused the aid. That might give him wiggle room in future negotiations, if he is at risk of looking anti-Israel at some point? I know, I'm overthinking this. Trump has one diplomatic trick, and that's sabre rattling. He doesn't operate with subtlety.

It's just a crazy situation with the MOU, but it's not without precedent. IIRC, the same situation happened in South Korea back in the late 1990s. Clinton was sending them so much aid they just totally rejected an aid package.

Have you looked into details about Trump’s peace plan? If you haven’t, I think you might change your mind for all the reasons I mentioned and more. Trump majorly broke from standard US practices when it came to Israel, all to its benefit. It’s definitely not a wash.

You are right that I haven't looked into the Israel situation closely in a while. I do have some catch up work to do there. I'll look into it more and give it some thought.

 

[Sid]

The 2021 issue will be: Who is going to provide the official presidential walker.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

As if Biden has a black agenda worthy of that vote? What's he going to provide? Bernie came with policies that would help millions in the near term. Biden has... band-aids for the messed up ACA, in which Florida still won't take the stupid Medicaid expansion. That helps Florida how? Enjoy watching Trump ads as Trump runs to Biden's left on a host of issues, just like he did to Hillary.

According to much of the commentary I've read recently -- much of it via the various twitter threads and articles to which Sal has been linking here -- many black Democrats are suggesting their problem with Sanders isn't his agenda at all, but more to do with their not trusting him, should he gain office, to support black communities and to have their back in the way they trust Biden.

They know Biden and he has worked with them over the years and won their trust the hard way. Sanders hasn't, and they fear he'll sell them out in the interests of his white core supporters.

Do you have any views on this analysis? It seems to explain the known facts perfectly well and seems a lot more persuasive than racist theories about "low information voters" waiting to be told by Representative Jim Clyburn for whom to vote.

 

[Beebo Brink]

They know Biden and he has worked with them over the years and won their trust the hard way. Sanders hasn't, and they fear he'll sell them out in the interests of his white core supporters.

Every year my understanding of issues that affect black Americans continues to grow. Every year I develop a deeper understanding of how white privilege works and how it is threaded through our culture. I have far less "need" to improve on this topic than does Bernie Sanders, yet I haven't seen any sign of his progress for years, if not decades. Instead, I see him stuck in that hoary adage of "a rising tide lifts all boats". He views the world through a white lens and has no interest in changing his perspective or his policies to incorporate the experience of other people who are not-white.

This is just one example showing that he is rigid, dogmatic and inflexible. That's a bad quality in a president.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

This is just one example showing that he is rigid, dogmatic and inflexible. That's a bad quality in a president.

Exactly how you expect old people to be. Trump, Biden, Sanders - it doesn't matter, they are all old by any standard.

 

[Essence Lumin]

Exactly how you expect old people to be. Trump, Biden, Sanders - it doesn't matter, they are all old by any standard.

That kind of blanket statement kind of pisses me off being 61. Is that old?

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Nope. But I was talking about the candidates only, to add some context:

Average male life expectancy in the USA: 76.3 years, slowly decreasing at the moment.

Trump is 73, Biden 77 and Sanders 78 years old. Yes, this makes them physically old because the majority of their life is in the past, but not the future. And since the state of the body also affects our behaviour chances are this has impact on their views and actions as well.

 

[Cristalle]

According to much of the commentary I've read recently -- much of it via the various twitter threads and articles to which Sal has been linking here -- many black Democrats are suggesting their problem with Sanders isn't his agenda at all, but more to do with their not trusting him, should he gain office, to support black communities and to have their back in the way they trust Biden.

They know Biden and he has worked with them over the years and won their trust the hard way. Sanders hasn't, and they fear he'll sell them out in the interests of his white core supporters.

Do you have any views on this analysis? It seems to explain the known facts perfectly well and seems a lot more persuasive than racist theories about "low information voters" waiting to be told by Representative Jim Clyburn for whom to vote.

My view is basically aligned with Antonio Moore's views. If you decide to listen, you'll get a much better understanding.

Black Americans have been getting the shaft under a new Jim Crow system after the end of Jim Crow. Neither party has done much of anything to advance their material economic health in decades, to give them the disposable income to exert more power. They have a home in the Democratic Party but the party has been skewing towards corporate interests for decades. Biden is the candidate that all my Republican friends who hate Trump's vulgarity feel comfortable voting for. That should tell you something.

That people think that they can work with Biden is a joke, when you look at his record. He's been on the wrong side of every major mistake this country has made in the last 40 years, and often against the black people. His crime bill opened the floodgates to mass incarceration and created the prison industrial complex. He pushed Reagan on this, not the other way around. The arrest records for petty crimes has impaired a generation of people because of the advance of credit checks and background checks screwing people over economically.

The record is not there to support those votes. And some people in the Civil Rights Movement who were leaders, like Clyburn, have gotten comfortable because they got into power and courted by corporate interests. Clyburn sold the country out. This movement is not going to roll over for Biden. He is toast in November.

 

[Cristalle]

You won't need deepfakes for the stuff he's already done, and will do.

What, why the eye roll, Shiloh?

All men and women were created equal by, you know the, you know, the thing!

A deepfake would make that coherent, maybe he should hope for one.

 

[Eunoli]

The record is not there to support those votes. And some people in the Civil Rights Movement who were leaders, like Clyburn, have gotten comfortable because they got into power and courted by corporate interests. Clyburn sold the country out. This movement is not going to roll over for Biden. He is toast in November.

Good of you to whitesplain that.

 

[Anya Ristow]

They know Biden and he has worked with them over the years and won their trust the hard way.

What has he done for them?

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’

“Voting for Bernie Sanders requires that black people believe that white people will do something they’ve never done: willingly and openly share the economic bounty of the United States.”

So...vote for the senator from MBNA?

Sanders may be tone deaf, but he's legit trying to share the economic bounty of the United States. If he's unsuccessful convincing you of that, then fine. If you think his policies don't target black people specifically, then fine. But in what universe is Joe Biden going to share a damned thing but his supposed charm?

Am I wrong in thinking the article is saying that black voters aren't so much voting for Joe Biden or even against Bernie Sanders, but against white voters?

I had pondered what would have happened if Clyburn had endorsed Warren, but the article covers that, too, explicitly. And I gotta say it's not flattering for anyone. We say a lot of Republicans vote against their own best interest. Are we prepared to say that Democrats do, too?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

My view is basically aligned with Antonio Moore's views. If you decide to listen, you'll get a much better understanding.

Black Americans have been getting the shaft under a new Jim Crow system after the end of Jim Crow. Neither party has done much of anything to advance their material economic health in decades, to give them the disposable income to exert more power. They have a home in the Democratic Party but the party has been skewing towards corporate interests for decades. Biden is the candidate that all my Republican friends who hate Trump's vulgarity feel comfortable voting for. That should tell you something.

That people think that they can work with Biden is a joke, when you look at his record. He's been on the wrong side of every major mistake this country has made in the last 40 years, and often against the black people. His crime bill opened the floodgates to mass incarceration and created the prison industrial complex. He pushed Reagan on this, not the other way around. The arrest records for petty crimes has impaired a generation of people because of the advance of credit checks and background checks screwing people over economically.

The record is not there to support those votes. And some people in the Civil Rights Movement who were leaders, like Clyburn, have gotten comfortable because they got into power and courted by corporate interests. Clyburn sold the country out. This movement is not going to roll over for Biden. He is toast in November.

Possibly so, but that doesn't begin to address the point I raised, which is about back voters' perception of Bernie Sanders -- that is, a lot of black voters, and older black voters in particular, don't trust him, and don't believe he has their best interests at heart.

That is, Sanders and Biden have both been in politics for a long time and, during that time, one has won the trust of older black Democrats (who've had the longest to observe the two of them) and one hasn't.

You may well be correct that these voters' trust in Biden is misplaced, or that they are mistaken not to trust Sanders to refrain from selling them out if it becomes convenient, but the fact is that it's their trust, or lack of it, in the two candidates that's driving their votes, not their views on the candidates' policies.

This same problem -- distrust of the leader rather than disagreement with his policies -- is one of the many reasons Labour lost so badly here last December, so it's an issue that particularly concerns me.

Anyway, I'm wondering if you have any views on this assessment (other than that they're wrong and they should trust Sanders, of course)?

What do you think he can do, or should have done, to remedy this?

It's a problem, and a big one, for Sanders and his campaign that one very important Democratic constituency don't seem prepared to support him.

How, in your view, can that be fixed?

 

[Cristalle]

Good of you to whitesplain that.

I'm black, fuck you very much.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

What has he done for them?

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’



So...vote for the senator from MBNA?

Sanders may be tone deaf, but he's legit trying to share the economic bounty of the United States. If he's unsuccessful convincing you of that, then fine. If you think his policies don't target black people specifically, then fine. But in what universe is Joe Biden going to share a damned thing but his supposed charm?

Am I wrong in thinking the article is saying that black voters aren't so much voting for Joe Biden or even against Bernie Sanders, but against white voters?

I had pondered what would have happened if Clyburn had endorsed Warren, but the article covers that, too, explicitly. And I gotta say it's not flattering for anyone. We say a lot of Republicans vote against their own best interest. Are we prepared to say that Democrats do, too?

So your response to the criticism is that they've got it wrong and don't understand their own best interests?

ETA: You might find this article of interest

An Open Letter to White Liberals Blaming 'Low Information' Black Voters for Not Cleaning Up White Folks' Mess

Dear Sir or White Man,

www.theroot.com

Biden might be a shit choice but black Southerners are aware that criminalizing black people may be the oldest American tradition and might make no distinction between the man who wrote the bill and the guy who signed the bill. Maybe black people voted for Biden because he worked in the administration that gave them healthcare. Perhaps those people trust him because he was part of the largest tax increase on the wealthy since the 1950s. They also know how white people react when the government starts helping people. They remember when a “living wage” was called “welfare” and “criminal justice reform” was called “soft on crime”

Maybe they’re voting on Biden’s ability alone. You act as if black people aren’t aware that, in 30 years, your boy hasn’t written a single piece of successful legislation. In three decades, what has Sanders ever achieved? What has he ever done that improved the lives of black people?

 

[Eunoli]

Am I wrong in thinking the article is saying that black voters aren't so much voting for Joe Biden or even against Bernie Sanders, but against white voters?

Yes, you are. If you'd spent time watching people being interviewed and read some of the exit polls you would see this has nothing to do with policies. It has to do with trust. Black voters know and trust Joe Biden. You might disagree with them or not like it, but they do. They are saying it over and over again at the polls.

 

[Eunoli]

I'm black, fuck you very much.

And I apologize for getting that wrong.

 

[Aeon Jiminy]

Bringing up Trump around people like this seems to illicit some kind of psychotic break. I think it's because they know, deep down, that the chances are, Trump will win this election, and they can't do anything about it, because they can't actually hold a civil political conversation with people who disagree with them. They don't actually debate Trump's policies, and they don't actually compare him to other candidates. They turn on their favorite 24 hour news channel, and that channel tells them how to feel about the news, and they fall in line, and they feel the way the talking head on the TV tells them to feel. They don't seem to mind that this situation isolates them, because it makes it so they can only discuss politics within the fandom of their favorite TV channel. I do actually understand where they are coming from. Not everybody has the time or energy or curiosity to stay as informed about current events and basic civics as you and me.

To be clear, I'm not talking about everybody here, just a vocal minority who seem to like to hurl insults and talk about who is allied with who, and who they trust and don't trust. You know, people who just want to hurt your feelings on internet forums. Those people are just jerks.

I don't put people on ignore, but I'm at a point where I think I generally won't respond to those people, unless they start being civil or something. I don't think they will be, but you know... always give people a chance.

Sometimes, like today, American politics feels more like a religion. Trump is just a man, who I feel the Democrats have spent 4 years investing an incredible amount of negative energy turning him into a supernatural demon. So now we're dealing with the devil and his following. Everyone is suspect who even remotely tries to humanize the opposition. We are in a church right now. We need to be respectful.

 

[Anya Ristow]

So your response to the criticism is that they've got it wrong and don't understand their own best interests?

I'm waiting for anyone at all to tell me...why Joe Biden?

Black voters know and trust Joe Biden.

Why?

this has nothing to do with policies

Then what is it? Trust him...for what? To do...what?

 

[Cristalle]

Possibly so, but that doesn't begin to address the point I raised, which is about back voters' perception of Bernie Sanders -- that is, a lot of black voters, and older black voters in particular, don't trust him, and don't believe he has their best interests at heart.

That is, Sanders and Biden have both been in politics for a long time and, during that time, one has won the trust of older black Democrats (who've had the longest to observe the two of them) and one hasn't.

You may well be correct that these voters' trust in Biden is misplaced, or that they are mistaken not to trust Sanders to refrain from selling them out if it becomes convenient, but the fact is that it's their trust, or lack of it, in the two candidates that's driving their votes, not their views on the candidates' policies.

This same problem -- distrust of the leader rather than disagreement with his policies -- is one of the many reasons Labour lost so badly here last December, so it's an issue that particularly concerns me.

Anyway, I'm wondering if you have any views on this assessment (other than that they're wrong and they should trust Sanders, of course)?

What do you think he can do, or should have done, to remedy this?

It's a problem, and a big one, for Sanders and his campaign that one very important Democratic constituency don't seem prepared to support him.

How, in your view, can that be fixed?

At this stage in the game, it cannot be fixed. People did not have the courage to vote their values, they voted out of fear. What is happening here is a bandwagon effect. The people in South Carolina relied on James Clyburn, and most of them voted for Biden because of Clyburn's endorsement. Other people took that as a signal that Biden was the way to go, but not because that trust was earned via votes but because of Party identification. Because he's a Democrat and that is what they know. That is what I took away from the article from the Root.

And it is emblematic of the dynamics of black politics for the last 40 years. White politicians get black votes without giving anything in return. They come out to talk about black politics and black needs when the time comes for election, but in the time to make legislation, no black issues ever come up. Not the ones that would benefit black people economically.