WTF Sh*t's F*cked Up and Bullsh*t - a "Who Cares" thread for news

Grandma Bates

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You say you "can't imagine ever saying obvious racist things," but that's not really the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not defending this young chap and his friends. I'm simply saying that teens (like people of any age, but even more so) tend to do, and say, things that, in the past, have always remained buried in their teenage years.

Maybe it's just me but I grew up in an environment where I, and all my friends, had a whole range of different personae appropriate to different circumstances and social settings, which we tried to keep well apart. Parents and family saw various versions of me (somewhat edited, in that there were things about me my mother knew but not my father and vice versa), and my friends, school saw other versions, and different friends even more different versions, and there were various moments of high drama and low farce as different social settings and personae collided.

That's all part of being a teenager.

For me and my friends, though, most of the time we could keep all these different roles and social worlds apart, as we struggled to learn the rules of the wider world we were gradually discovering and learning to negotiate, and what happened in private generally stayed there, gradually lost to everyone's memory as time moved on.

Fourteen- or fifteen- year-old me was pretty much an historical figure for seventeen- or eighteen-year-old me, and I would have been as horrified to see her suddenly reappear in my life two or three years later as I would have been to meet a ghost.

That's gone now, though. Telescreens in 1984 were part of a dystopian nightmare. Now we voluntarily carry them round with us all the time, tracking and recording our movements and communications, and using them to conduct -- and thus record for posterity, whether we intend it or not -- so many conversations and social interactions, and all the while pretty much unwittingly pumping out masses of personal data about ourselves that companies and others use -- and sell to each other -- to know us better than we know ourselves.

Heavens, I can remember when the Berlin Wall came down and the full extent to which the security services of their respective countries spied on their citizens and the records they kept -- on paper, of course, in files they were desperately trying to destroy as the regimes fell.

Now, some 30-odd years later, we most of us voluntarily build up a more or less public archive on ourselves than the East German Stasi could never have dreamed of amassing, and which the authorities in some countries can now demand we turn over to them as a condition of entry.

It's a completely different world. I've seen this particularly with the law relating to social media and so on -- here in the UK (and I would imagine in most other places, too) we've had to struggle with applying existing laws on harassment, disorderly behaviour and so on to situations that were undreamed of when the laws were written, with the result that, at least in the UK, people have found themselves sued for libel, or in court for grossly offensive or threatening communications as a result of passing on rumours and stories, or making bad jokes and tasteless remarks, as if they were gossiping with friends after too much to drink rather than broadcasting to a world-wide audience.

Laws that were perfectly reasonable and fit for purpose when they were written, and people communicated face to face or by phone or by letter, are constantly having to be revised and rewritten to take into account texts, social media and so on.

That was my real point, I think -- that the whole environment in which any sort of social transaction now takes place is so different from what it was only 20 or 30 years ago.
I agree with you on this. I have seen young people post silly pictures that were later taken out of context by others who had no idea what happened, and the result is a negative impact that they can never shake. People make mistakes and should be allowed room to admit their mistakes and grow. Harvard was wrong to rescind its admission. Harvard may have made the mistake of allowing him into the institution but should stand by their students.

On the other hand, I find it incomprehensible that Kyle Kashuv was granted admission to any educational institution. His continued support and work to help Turning Point USA should be enough to disqualify him to matriculate anywhere. Turning Point USA has created and maintained watch lists of academics and have created an environment that supports death threats to academics. They are reprehensible. At the same time, whenever they are called on it, Turning Point USA complains that they are being attacked in a way that is inconsistent with the goals of open dialog on college campuses while simultaneously using open forums to shut down academic speech.
 

Veritable Quandry

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I am just very glad that when I was in my teens and twenties, cameras were bulky and film was expense so my crowd almost never had them. And the shit we said was forgotten rather quickly. As a society we need to grapple with the changes to how we communicate and what exactly we do about online material that is still out there as people age. There does need to be some kind of statute of limitations for stupid posts and an accepted way of demonstrating change and gaining forgiveness for youthful transgressions.

Saying that, hate speech should have a higher bar than things like underage drinking or pot smoking, and really needs to show a change of heart. James Gunn handled his online past well, and the fact that the people who drug up his tweets had bad motives colored how people saw his conduct and his apology.
 

Romana

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I am just very glad that when I was in my teens and twenties, cameras were bulky and film was expense so my crowd almost never had them. And the shit we said was forgotten rather quickly. As a society we need to grapple with the changes to how we communicate and what exactly we do about online material that is still out there as people age. There does need to be some kind of statute of limitations for stupid posts and an accepted way of demonstrating change and gaining forgiveness for youthful transgressions.

Saying that, hate speech should have a higher bar than things like underage drinking or pot smoking, and really needs to show a change of heart. James Gunn handled his online past well, and the fact that the people who drug up his tweets had bad motives colored how people saw his conduct and his apology.
That last paragraph, yes. The young man gave a non-apology apology sadly typical of "conservatives" these days as was pointed out multiple times on Twitter, nothing like James Gunn.
He may not have really meant the slurs, but he comes off as thinking that it wasn't important enough to be sorry about because it was a whole two years ago.
Harvard should perhaps have agreed to his request for a meeting; he may have apologized better i person, or they could better judge whether he was in fact sincere. But I'm not ready to say they acted wrongly in rescinding his admission. Other students have been rejected for things as minor or more so; should he have more leeway because of his notoriety?
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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No drugs, no interest in drugs (I had to be talked into trying weed in my late 20s by my _brother_, who was 2 years younger and working at some cop-adjacent job at the time!), no drinking (I was 24 and already online before I ever got drunk), no amorous adventures, never even skipped school... I was the boringest teen ever.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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Sure, but can you honestly say that, when you were in your early and mid teens, or even later, while you and your friends were alone together, you never did or said anything absolutely stupid that you don't cringe to remember and might now cause you acute embarrassment if evidence of it were to resurface after all these years and be posted all over Twitter or Facebook?
I get what you're saying....but, I can't agree that racial slurs and anti-semitism is just another embarrassing teen antic like making 420 jokes or trading barbs with an ex you just broke up with.

And besides, we're not reallly talking about years and years later. "Almost two years ago" when this guy was making those comments, was roughly around the same time he was taking his SAT's, and we generally don't have any problem with colleges considering those.

An 18-year-old doesn't get to talk about something they did when they were 16 like it was miles away in space and time and they deserve the presumption of having changed their worldview since then. If they want people to think that they need to pony up some evidence.
 
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Arkady Arkright

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I am so glad that I was born when I was ... not that I or my friends would have done or said like what he did, but the thought of some of the weird and stupid stuff I and my friends got up to in our various peer groups, as clearly they still do, only now online as well as face to face, and the idea that some of it might come back to haunt me later.. God, it does not bear thinking about, it really doesn't.
This needs much more than just a 'Like' button. You are so completely and utterly correct with this. You've said something I've been thinking for quite a while, but so much better than I ever could. Thank you.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I get what you're saying....but, I can't agree that racial slurs and anti-semitism is just another embarrassing teen antic like making 420 jokes or trading barbs with an ex you just broke up with.

And besides, we're not reallly talking about years and years later. "Almost two years ago" when this guy was making those comments, was roughly around the same time he was taking his SAT's, and we generally don't have any problem with colleges considering those.

An 18-year-old doesn't get to talk about something they did when they were 16 like it was miles away and space and time and they deserve the presumption of having changed their worldview since then. If they want people to think that they need to pony up some evidence.
The more I think about it, this seems to me to raise all manner of issues.

This may be, in part, a difference between British and US culture, but certainly I'm frequently alarmed to read about how ready the US courts are to try (and punish) juveniles as adults.

Over here, no matter what a 15- or 16-year old does, the whole criminal justice system is going to treat him or her completely differently from how it treats an 18-year--old, and the 18-year-old will normally be treated rather differently from a 21-year-old if convicted and sentenced to immediate custody, even for the gravest offences, including murder.

I don't seek to excuse 15- or 16-year-olds for their misconduct but I am used to a system that does treat them far less harshly than would it treat an adult under similar circumstances, and which seeks (not necessarily always with a great deal of success, of course) to reform and rehabilitate them rather than punish them or deter others. It's not a matter of either/or, of course -- rather it's a matter of what sort of balance the judge will seek to strike.

So perhaps I'm just culturally more prepared to give teenagers a lot more leeway than I would grant to adults, provided, of course, they appear to have learned from their experience.

Interesting piece in today's Guardian about the case and some of the issues it raises.


I can think of several examples, come to think of it, which are broadly parallel to this case and that I saw first-hand while I was at university, but with the huge difference that these cases were played out, by-and-large, within the broadly self-contained world of Cambridge University in the 1970s rather than on a world stage in the Harvard in 2019.

The issues were the same but the consequences were far less public and, I assume, far less severe and potentially devastating.

That is a huge change, though -- the way something is now potentially public and amplified to a world-wide audience. There's all sorts of dangers and perils I had to learn to avoid and negotiate when I was a child, and later a teenager, without much help from the adult world, which viewed all this with a nonchalance that now seems quite chilling, but we didn't have to do it all (potentially, at least) in a goldfish bowl and under a spotlight.

That's what I mean about different worlds.
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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I'm 100% with you when it comes to treating kids as adults for criminal purposes. I don't think it's ever right.

But this isn't a criminal thing and he's not being tried in a court or sentenced to prison.

Back when you were growing up, you maybe didn't have all of your most embarrassing moments carved in stone for all eternity. But, I'd be willing to bet that the kids your age, when applying to colleges, made every effort to point out all of the GOOD and PROUD moments of their high-school lives - the sports teams they were captain of, the student-council presidencies, the canned food drives they helped organize, and so on and so forth - of not only "almost two years ago", but considerably longer before that. Perhaps even from before high school, if they felt there was something useful from back then that painted them in a good light. And they fully expected the colleges to consider all these "good things" when deciding whether they were more worthy of admission than another student with similar academic stats.

I can think of several examples, come to think of it, which are broadly parallel to this case and that I saw first-hand while I was at university, but with the huge difference that these cases were played out, by-and-large, within the broadly self-contained world of Cambridge University in the 1970s rather than on a world stage in the Harvard in 2019.

The issues were the same but the consequences were far less public and, I assume, far less severe and potentially devastating.
Okay; but in this case, who's fault is that though? The only reason you and I even know about THIS case is because Kyle Kashuv himself chose to get on a public forum and complain about Harvard rescinding his admission. Harvard sent its letter privately to him and nobody else.
 
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Romana

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People have to get it thru their heads that when you put stupid or personal stuff out there you don't have control of it; not complete control, anyway.
Here's another variation on the same thing:


I needed even heard of this actres before this, but in not impressed with her as a person for her word choices to Whoopi Goldberg, who was basically just saying if you're a celeb of any sort you're more of a target for hackers, so maybe don't put your nude photos in the cloud....
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I'm 100% with you when it comes to treating kids as adults for criminal purposes. I don't think it's ever right.

But this isn't a criminal thing and he's not being tried in a court or sentenced to prison.

Back when you were growing up, you maybe didn't have all of your most embarrassing moments carved in stone for all eternity. But, I'd be willing to bet that the kids your age, when applying to colleges, made every effort to point out all of the GOOD and PROUD moments of their high-school lives - the sports teams they were captain of, the student-council presidencies, the canned food drives they helped organize, and so on and so forth - of not only "almost two years ago", but considerably longer before that. Perhaps even from before high school, if they felt there was something useful from back then that painted them in a good light. And they fully expected the colleges to consider all these "good things" when deciding whether they were more worthy of admission than another student with similar academic stats.



Okay; but in this case, who's fault is that though? The only reason you and I even know about THIS case is because Kyle Kashuv himself chose to get on a public forum and complain about Harvard rescinding his admission. Harvard sent its letter privately to him and nobody else.
The reason I used the parallel with the court system is that we treat juveniles very differently from the way we treat adults because we know that -- whatever they may think -- adolescents are not yet adults and we know we can't safely expect them to have the same kind of self-control and good judgment we expect them to display when they are more mature.

That's the other side of not letting them drink, vote, drive, have sex with each other, enter into credit agreements and so forth until they have reached particular ages -- they're not considered to have reached a sufficient level of maturity. Certainly the ages may be considered arbitrary, but that's inevitable -- you have to have some sort of readily calculable cut-off point.

I agree with Grandma Bates here -- I would be far more concerned about his current involvement with this Turning Point USA outfit than his dreadful behaviour a couple of years ago. His present political activities would give me far more cause for concern for the welfare of other members of the university and its community, and for the disruption he might cause to university life, than would his foul-mouthed and stupid games with friends a couple of years ago.

I'm not sure that I'd dismiss his previous misbehaviour as trivial but I have to say that Biblical injunctions against straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel come to mind for some reason.

As to students presenting the best sides of themselves in their applications, I suspect that university admissions tutors probably have as good an idea as does The Shadow of what evil lurks in the hearts of men, and particularly in those of a certain type of bright and cocky teenager.

That's not really the question, though, I would have thought. Rather, since universities are assisting students to develop and mature, and to help them learn how best to achieve their full potential, I'd think the better question for the admissions committee is whether he seems to have matured to the extent we can help him learn, while carrying out our overriding responsibility to protect the health and well-being of staff and students and to preserving the peace and good order of the university community.

Unfortunately, his current political activities suggest that it wouldn't be safe to admit him. However, that raises all sorts of civil liberties issues, so it makes a certain cynical sense to use the other available route to withdraw the offer.
 

Tigger

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“Are you arguing seriously that you do not read the agreement as requiring you to do anything other than what I just described: cold all night long, lights on all night long, sleeping on concrete and you’ve got an aluminum foil blanket?” Fletcher asked Fabian. “I find that inconceivable that the government would say that that is safe and sanitary.”
The US government is actually going to appeal against a court decision that requires them to give soap and toothbrushes to detained children, children who are dying at the rate of 1 a month in US custody.

 

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On June 17, an independent tribunal which has been investigating "forced organ harvesting" from Chinese prisoners, including Falun Gong practitioners and Uighur Muslims, published its final judgment.

The China Tribunal concluded that "forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale, [and] the tribunal has had no evidence that the significant infrastructure associated with China’s transplantation industry has been dismantled and absent a satisfactory explanation as to the source of readily available organs concludes that forced organ harvesting continues till today."
 

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Trump presented the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Arthur Laffer, the guy who invented the hackneyed "supply side economics" idea that Reagan thought was so swell. (It wasn't).

In his remarks, Trump said that he had studied the Laffer Theory when he attended Wharton College. Trump graduated from Wharton in 1968. 2. Laffer developed the theory in 1979.

Oh.