2020 Democratic Primary

Salome

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At least Gamergaters could make a case about ethics in game journalism. Nah, joking!
The similarities are striking. The same hypocritical bullshit belief that their position has sometching to do with ethics. The same focus on people doing the least harm while ignoring people doing the most harm. The same blind faith in propaganda and conspiracy mongers.

it’s almost like GG was a blueprint for the current nonsense...
 
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Innula Zenovka

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You put in so much effort for people who are just going to ignore you. It's adorable, but a bit worrying.
I fully expect her to ignore me, which is one of the reasons I raised it.

People have a problem with Rupert Murdoch and Fox, or Sinclair International and so on -- this is Vladimir bloody Putin and a bunch of very smart and media-savvy fascists, for heaven's sake, but some folks supposedly on the left seem to think that American Exceptionalism means RT America are different from RT everywhere else.
 

Salome

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People have a problem with Rupert Murdoch and Fox, or Sinclair International and so on -- this is Vladimir bloody Putin and a bunch of very smart and media-savvy fascists, for heaven's sake, but some folks supposedly on the left seem to think that American Exceptionalism means RT America are different from RT everywhere else.
What kills me is how they deny and mock all of Russia‘s active measures because they’ve been spoon-fed Putin‘s narrative for so long while insisting they’re the enlightened ones. Which is doubly insane because most of the best intel on Russia’s tactics didn’t even come from the US intelligence community they’re so dead against.
 

Salome

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Whelp. If this is true, Amy is toast in the VP stakes.
While serving as Minnesota’s chief prosecutor between 1999 and 2007, Klobuchar declined to bring charges against more than two dozen officers who had killed citizens while on duty – including against the cop that killed George Floyd.
 

Eunoli

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To be honest, what I see here is a case study on what makes propaganda work when implemented correctly and why the Russians are willing to throw so much cash at this. You have to throw some lures out to catch the fish. But, that's all I'm going to say for now.
 

Cristalle

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Or we could talk about RT's coverage of Ukraine.

The station is financed by the Russian government, for heaven's sake. Russia is completely open about conducting an information war, claiming that all broadcasting is propaganda, and they're just more open about that they're doing.

Quite simply, I do not trust anyone who takes money from a broadcaster run by the Russian government, who are quite openly fascists.

Whatever the people doing the shows have to say, and however much freedom they say they have (or, more properly, think they have), they would not be paid to say it on RT if RT's producers didn't think it suited their agenda to have them say it.

Anyone with a show on RT is knowingly in the pay of fascists, quite simply. That's the hard fact of it.
/Fair enough.

Thanks but again: I only watch it occasionally. I don't watch it regularly so I didn't see all their coverage of Ukraine, which I would expect to naturally be tilted toward Putin's interests - and of course the little bit of coverage on Russia that I can recall was pretty obviously suspect. All broadcasting IS propaganda, that I will agree with - and our media outlets are no exception.

I read this article and have this sincere question: where do you draw the line between an honest critique of a country's system and disinformation? At what point do you classify an activist reformer as a "useful idiot" like some claim?

States will always use all the tools at their disposal to protect their national interests and pursue foreign policy objectives. But if the modus operandi of state-controlled media is to delegitimise institutions and sources of authority in the eyes of a section of the wider public, undermine social cohesion by amplifying divisive voices, draw attention to examples of western hypocrisy, and promote narratives of fear and uncertainty, then how do we respond?
This logic ultimately justifies the heavy-handed oppression of the Black Panthers by the FBI, the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., police brutality against Black Lives Matter, or any number of actions designed to eliminate dissent, which is just fascism by native sources. Where do you draw the line between patriotic dissent seeking antiracist or anti-war reforms and foreign subversion?

ETA: note that here, a bunch of mainly white liberals are content to dismiss the latest Biden gaffe as a nothingburger distraction, when he spoke the quiet part out loud about taking the black vote for granted. Biden acted as if blacks are somehow obligated to vote for him because he's the Democrat, as if there is no other reasonable calculus to vote otherwise. It conveniently dismisses the very real issues of the Democratic Party needing to show up in material means for its staunchest constituency to-date, which in recent decades have gotten very little to advance their material concerns. People here and elsewhere pooh-poohed it as "yet another thing to divide us" instead of honestly considering the question from Charlamagne's and others' position in any meaningful sense. Black needs conveniently got thrown under the bus for political expediency, as usual. But "the TYT left" (funny misnomer since they're pushing Biden last I checked) is being blamed for trying to take down the presumptive nominee (not ACTUAL nominee yet).

So, from that angle, people upset at Biden's gaffe are thus supposedly useful idiots of the Russians instead of people with valid concerns - making people like Charlamagne invisible, of course. Where is the line? Are you saying Charlamagne is a Russian tool for speaking up? Because this kind of talk, emphasizing this false unity that papers over the material concerns of large swaths of people. It's Blue MAGA, basically, longing for a national unity that relied on silencing dissent from oppressed classes. The only answer to it seems to be a whataboutism, "But Trump..." instead of pushing the party to actually deliver something.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I read this article and have this sincere question: where do you draw the line between an honest critique of a country's system and disinformation? At what point do you classify an activist reformer as a "useful idiot" like some claim?
You need, I think, to consider RT's agenda, and the message, the narrative, the Russian government is trying to promote.

RT has two broad aims -- first, to promote particular Russian foreign policy objectives, and second to discredit liberal democracy and the rule of law as cynical myths promulgated by corrupt "globalists" and their puppets.

The overall message is "Everyone's in it for themselves, and western politicians are no exception. They're just as bad as their Russian counterparts, if not worse, and complaints about human rights abuses and corruption in Russia are nothing but hypocritical propaganda by an equally corrupt liberal and cosmopolitan elite."

When it comes to the US, Russia has, it seems to me, several goals.

First, the Kremlin wants to weaken US power and influence, and undermine the whole post-war Western alliance, and anything they can do to re-elect Trump obviously helps that no end.

They also want to disrupt the elections as much as possible, to discredit the whole democratic process, so will do all they can do to disrupt the campaigns, with Democrats fighting amongst themselves, by amplifying conflicts within the Democrats to depress the Democratic vote.

This not only helps to re-elect Trump, their favoured candidate, but also helps discredit the whole idea of liberal democracy as a model that other countries might follow (and, to be fair, the US at present is hardly much of an advertisement for the system at the international level).

So, to my mind, the "activist reformer" who is considering an offer from RT needs consider it even more carefully than she or he might when considering an offer from Fox or OANN, asking him- or herself why, exactly, the station wants to broadcast and amplify their views and how it intends to use them to support Putin's goal of a greater Eurasian federation dominated by Russia.

To my mind, there are plenty of other platforms and media the "activist reformer" can use to promote his or her views where they won't be co-opted to suit the agenda of Russian fascism and a greater Eurasia, so they should use them.

They should avoid RT just as they should avoid Fox, and for similar, but even more urgent reasons. I had dealings with Putin and people like him back in St P thirty years ago, and those guys are very scary indeed. They're extremely smart, completely amoral and ruthless, and as far as they're concerned, if you take their money, you're theirs.

Best not to have nothing to do with them, really -- one of the reasons I got out of Russia when I did is that, had I not, then whatever I thought of the matter, people to whom no sane person wants to be indebted would have thought I owed them some favours, and they're not people you want to have coming to collect, they really aren't.
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Meanwhile, American media and journalists are breaking new territory to investigate New York corruption that may have killed tens of thousands of nursing home patients and helped create a false Democratic hero.

Cutting through the Russian propaganda is the Cuomo Bros. and their giant Q-tips.

 

Aeon Jiminy

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Looks like Putin is up to his old tricks again. When will he ever learn that smart informed Americans can see through his plans to make us stupid?

 

Eunoli

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But but the fact that local U.S. TV stations are owned by conglomerates with their own agendas completely invalidates the arguments of Putin's influence over RT. Can't you see that?!?!
Oh! When you put it that way!
 
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Cristalle

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You need, I think, to consider RT's agenda, and the message, the narrative, the Russian government is trying to promote.

RT has two broad aims -- first, to promote particular Russian foreign policy objectives, and second to discredit liberal democracy and the rule of law as cynical myths promulgated by corrupt "globalists" and their puppets.

The overall message is "Everyone's in it for themselves, and western politicians are no exception. They're just as bad as their Russian counterparts, if not worse, and complaints about human rights abuses and corruption in Russia are nothing but hypocritical propaganda by an equally corrupt liberal and cosmopolitan elite."

When it comes to the US, Russia has, it seems to me, several goals.

First, the Kremlin wants to weaken US power and influence, and undermine the whole post-war Western alliance, and anything they can do to re-elect Trump obviously helps that no end.

They also want to disrupt the elections as much as possible, to discredit the whole democratic process, so will do all they can do to disrupt the campaigns, with Democrats fighting amongst themselves, by amplifying conflicts within the Democrats to depress the Democratic vote.

This not only helps to re-elect Trump, their favoured candidate, but also helps discredit the whole idea of liberal democracy as a model that other countries might follow (and, to be fair, the US at present is hardly much of an advertisement for the system at the international level).

So, to my mind, the "activist reformer" who is considering an offer from RT needs consider it even more carefully than she or he might when considering an offer from Fox or OANN, asking him- or herself why, exactly, the station wants to broadcast and amplify their views and how it intends to use them to support Putin's goal of a greater Eurasian federation dominated by Russia.

To my mind, there are plenty of other platforms and media the "activist reformer" can use to promote his or her views where they won't be co-opted to suit the agenda of Russian fascism and a greater Eurasia, so they should use them.

They should avoid RT just as they should avoid Fox, and for similar, but even more urgent reasons. I had dealings with Putin and people like him back in St P thirty years ago, and those guys are very scary indeed. They're extremely smart, completely amoral and ruthless, and as far as they're concerned, if you take their money, you're theirs.

Best not to have nothing to do with them, really -- one of the reasons I got out of Russia when I did is that, had I not, then whatever I thought of the matter, people to whom no sane person wants to be indebted would have thought I owed them some favours, and they're not people you want to have coming to collect, they really aren't.
I appreciate your response, but you are not answering the fundamental question about where the line is between "disinformation" as described in that piece and patriotic dissent, honest critiques of our system. It's not about RT, really, it's much bigger than RT. Anyone who has the temerity to criticize the one party that is supposedly supposed to be working on behalf of the people to do better is tarred as useful idiot of the Russians because of Trump. Any notion of actually holding these leaders - especially those who have been there the longest and those who happen to also be black - is just "being divisive," as opposed to advocacy for real people's causes with the only major group with whom they would have any hope of negotiation.

It is a given that Putin is a nasty guy and I take it pretty much as a given that you're right that you don't want to deal with them if they think they own you. But I will also say that the unfortunate objective truth of this portion is not wrong:

The overall message is "Everyone's in it for themselves, and western politicians are no exception. They're just as bad as their Russian counterparts, if not worse, and complaints about human rights abuses and corruption in Russia are nothing but hypocritical propaganda by an equally corrupt liberal and cosmopolitan elite."
That would be objectively true when it comes to much of US foreign policy. Libya, Syria, much of the Middle East and all of Latin America would likely tend to agree. It would be somewhat different when it comes to domestic policy, but after a couple of weeks of broad-daylight lynchings and the murder of a black EMT in her own home following decades of little accountability for police shootings, ON TOP OF the abysmal response to a pandemic that has seen black and brown deaths at double the rate of everyone else and treating black and brown lives as expendable sacrifices, it's not as easy to draw distinctions.

But this is much bigger than that. It's on full display here; if you don't agree you must be from "the RT forums." That's just scared party loyalist bullshit.

For the past three years, anyone that has threatened to withhold their vote in exchange for policy has been painted as a "Russian bot trying to divide us." This image of the spoiled, white, male "Bernie Bro" and people under the influence of Russians have been scapegoated to explain Hillary Clinton's loss instead of taking a hard look at why people who voted twice for Obama would either leave the top block blank, vote for Trump, vote third-party (still a valid option in a democracy) or not vote at all.

It's a convenient lie, weaponizing sexism and some racism, considering that the demographics of who doesn't vote is largely people of color, who are poor or working class. It's made dissenting people of color invisible. Democrats and their media apparatchiks - many of whom are black, because blacks are the spine of the Democratic Party's voting base - have been pushing this lie instead of pushing for material changes that would bring the actual people who don't vote out to vote. There has been no accountability, and party loyalists keep it that way, acting reflexively to defend the party instead of pushing it to do better, as we have just seen illustrated in the response to Charlamagne tha God. It's been a very educational exercise in seeing the limitations of white guilt. When sellout Clyburn pushed Biden and waves of blacks voted for him, we were chided to respect their choices because they're black and they earned the right to express their choices. But now when people like Charlamagne and Diddy come to Biden with receipts, demanding policy commitments, they are told that they're being divisive and should just shut up, because Trump. Whataboutism...

This is rich:
Whataboutism is not a valid arguement.
Whataboutism is the only argument why people squash dissent and push Biden, you use it regularly. Pick one side of your face and stick with it.

People like Angela Rye and Joy Reid had the nerve to get on TV to call the people behind the American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) movement Russian bots because they wanted to give their votes to people who would materially improve the lives of their people and would withhold it otherwise. That's just smart politics; why would you give your vote away for nothing? And people like Brian did that here, calling them a hate group because they encourage people to not vote, ignoring the context of the demand that came with the vote and describing it as if it were not voting for the sake of not voting.

One of the few shreds of power people have in this corporatocracy is the vote, and it's the only way to hold politicians accountable. If you are not willing to withhold your vote, you incentivize being ignored. But because of the Republican bogeyman, for decades, we are told to hold our nose and vote for the lesser evil to the point where now we have Biden on, who has a hard time communicating and is otherwise is stuck in the 90s, a symbol of the institutional racism of our system. And he's running the exact same playbook as 2016, campaigning on morals when he's so bought and corrupt. If it wasn't for covid, he would be losing in a landslide. So people try to shame others for not voting or not voting the way they like, instead of demanding better from the candidate and the party instead. That's so deranged, it's no wonder we have such a demented candidate out there now. It's not even about Bernie. If this is the guy you're putting up, make him and the party worth voting for! And not just to vote against some bogeyman. But no... instead, people prefer to squash dissent rather than engage the ideas on their merits and act accordingly.

Where is the line between patriotic dissent, to move the party in a more favorable direction, and "disinformation"? You can't on the one hand be all friendly with black activists and yet pull this Russia bullshit when black people speak up to demand more. I can't see touting friendships with activists when you put people in power who have no priority in this lifetime let alone the next four years to move the needle on healthcare, propping up the immoral two-tiered blowjob to the insurance companies that we have. Dissent is extremely patriotic, otherwise we would still be under the English crown.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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People like Angela Rye and Joy Reid had the nerve to get on TV to call the people behind the American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) movement Russian bots because they wanted to give their votes to people who would materially improve the lives of their people and would withhold it otherwise. That's just smart politics; why would you give your vote away for nothing?
Thanks for the post, to which I will reply more fully when I have a bit more time.

However, let me pick up one point immediately.

Never having heard of ADOS or this controversy, I looked them in Wikipedia, which let me to this striking endorsement


and to this NYT article (paywalled)


That's precisely the way the Internet Research Agency in St Petersburg operate -- pick up genuine news stories and groups, and promote them via bot accounts on Facebook and Twitter with hashtags they want to get trending.

At the same time, the hashtags are being promoted on reddit (and doubtless discord now) to encourage homegrown trolls to join in, and before long it's "going viral", as they way.

This is, the Russian bots are like deliberate superspreaders of a virus (in the form of the hashtag) -- they run around shedding the stories and hashtags in groups and people pick this up and start sharing and forwarding the same stories and hashtags with their friends, relatives and groups, who in turn start sharing and arguing about them, and the hashtags start to trend and more and more people read them, and thus the story spreads into more general discourse until it works its way through into more mainstream media.

The aim is to divide the opposition, get them fighting amongst themselves and discourage them from voting, and this kind of anti-immigrant black group is exactly the sort of campaign they would want to promote.



So while I don't question the motivation of the group's founders, it would certainly appear that their campaign has been taken up and weaponised not only by the likes of Ann Coulter but also by Russian fascism.

You might be interested in this, from the London Review of Books -- this is the kind of channel RT is


And these describe in more detail how the Internet Research Agency works



 

Innula Zenovka

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I admire your persistence, Innula.
I'm a great believer in looking things up and checking sources, and I thought others might the references interesting or useful.

I am also continually amazed at how people can say that they realise RT is a propaganda organ for a literally fascist government but, nevertheless, they think it's a trustworthy source about anything.

The Russians have become a lot better at propaganda than they were during the days of the USSR.
 
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