Nobody Cares: PRS

[Innula Zenovka]

There is a school of thought that pedophiles are that way from birth, that that is how their brains are wired. Granted, the context of this thought is that we should show leniency because they can't help themselves, that that's just who they are.

But what evidence is adduced by people who follow this school of thought, and how reliable is it? That's what I'm asking. It's presumably backed up by empirical data about re-offending rates, which I'd like to examine.

Though, of course, that data might tell us more about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of particular treatment programmes in prison and about various forms of post-release supervision and about the need for background and safeguarding checks in particular occupations.

For what it's worth, conventional wisdom amongst UK law enforcement is that the quality of post-release supervision and surveillance are very important. Many specialist police and probation officers to whom I've talked can't understand the US policy of allowing public access to sex-offender databases, for example, since they see it as providing a strong incentive for offenders to go underground on release, leave the state, and break off all contact with law enforcement and post-release services, which in turn greatly increases the risk of their reoffending.

 

[Soen Eber]

But what evidence is adduced by people who follow this school of thought, and how reliable is it? That's what I'm asking. It's presumably backed up by empirical data about re-offending rates, which I'd like to examine.

Though, of course, that data might tell us more about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of particular treatment programmes in prison and about various forms of post-release supervision and about the need for background and safeguarding checks in particular occupations.

For what it's worth, conventional wisdom amongst UK law enforcement is that the quality of post-release supervision and surveillance are very important. Many specialist police and probation officers to whom I've talked can't understand the US policy of allowing public access to sex-offender databases, for example, since they see it as providing a strong incentive for offenders to go underground on release, leave the state, and break off all contact with law enforcement and post-release services, which in turn greatly increases the risk of their reoffending.

It's because there have been systematic efforts by certain groups to drive down trust in government, news media, centers of education, science, and just about everything that can hold people accountable in this country. How can scruples win out over tactics and the desemination of fear?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Something I don't understand. The age of consent in Louisiana is 17 but children of 16 are allowed to marry someone of any age with parental consent. Does this new law apply in these cases, too?

 

[Veritable Quandry]

There is usually a marital exception in statutory rape laws. That has been used in the past to make cases go away by getting the family to pressure the victim into marriage.

There are also sometimes exceptions based on age differences so an 18 year old and a 16 year old would not be statutory rape but a 23 year old and a 16 year old would be. That depends on the state.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

There is usually a marital exception in statutory rape laws. That has been used in the past to make cases go away by getting the family to pressure the victim into marriage.

I have trouble wrapping my head around this - like, imagine you're the family of a kid who got raped, and you turn to rapist into the cops, and then the cops come back to you and are like "Well if you make your kid marry him then the rapist won't face any consequences whatsoever for raping your kid" and you're like "What a deal, we'll take it!"???

 

[Zaida Gearbox]

Upon reflection, I'll expand on my previous statement. This topic has been discussed to death on the subreddit for 23andMe, to which I (as a customer of 23andMe) have belonged for quite some time.

The biggest concern appears to be that somehow some insurance company will get ahold of this DNA data and raise prices or deny coverage to certain people based on what the company has collected. This is not a very feasible event for any number of reasons.

First off, the DNA used for their results is just key snippets, not your entire genome. As such, it's an incomplete picture of any individual's health. They hit a few highlights, as much as the marketing can sell as being useful, but it's nowhere near the range of results you'd get from a medical lab to create an in-depth health profile. They can't afford to do that extensive testing because it already costs more to do than they're charging consumers.

But even if the test results were useful, there's no unbroken chain of custody that would be necessary to establish the clear identity of the consumer. People buy these for family, for friends, and run their accounts for them. People use nicknames or false names or post office box numbers for an address. If you have 350 John Smiths in your database, how would you identify the exact five John Smiths who happen to be covered by your insurance company?

Any insurance company who wanted to use DNA results to inform their coverage would have to do so for everyone, with clear procedures for linking a specific account with the specific DNA test. This is REALLY EXPENSIVE to do for very little return, even assuming you could get it past the courts. Denying someone coverage on a probability that they might have a heart attack based on genetic factors is far less reliable than taking their blood pressure and noting their BMI.

The only other credible concern is that law enforcement has used DNA databases to help track down really egregious criminals. But not only is their significant blowback from the DNA community, it's a time-consuming process. You need experienced genealogists who can track a 4th cousin of the DNA suspect and come up with the most likely person who has that DNA. That kind of resources aren't pulled in for your average felon, you have to be in the serial killer range to merit that kind of scrutiny.

Frankly, if I'm related to a serial killer, I'm more than happy to donate my DNA to the cause.

My grandmother, great-grandmother, and great-great grandmother all died relatively young of breast cancer. This is my dad's side of the family. I don't have any aunts or older female cousins. I'm the first female in that line since my grandmother. So, before my dad died, one of my doctors wanted him to take a DNA test to see if he carried the BRCA genes. But, ultimately, we decided not to do it because we were worried insurance companies would use it to deny coverage if I ever do develop breast cancer. I am now out of my 40s, and beginning to assume that I do not have those genes and might be safe.

 

[Beebo Brink]

I have trouble wrapping my head around this - like, imagine you're the family of a kid who got raped, and you turn to rapist into the cops, and then the cops come back to you and are like "Well if you make your kid marry him then the rapist won't face any consequences whatsoever for raping your kid" and you're like "What a deal, we'll take it!"???

This is intended for cases where underage teens were not physically coerced by the adult, where they were dating across the age of consent. Legally, of course, you can't call it consensual sex since underage teens can't claim consent.

 

[Beebo Brink]

My grandmother, great-grandmother, and great-great grandmother all died relatively young of breast cancer. This is my dad's side of the family. I don't have any aunts or older female cousins. I'm the first female in that line since my grandmother. So, before my dad died, one of my doctors wanted him to take a DNA test to see if he carried the BRCA genes. But, ultimately, we decided not to do it because we were worried insurance companies would use it to deny coverage if I ever do develop breast cancer. I am now out of my 40s, and beginning to assume that I do not have those genes and might be safe.

If your doctor orders this test from a medical lab, and it goes in your medical records, then there is a clear chain of custody for the test results that the insurance company could, theoretically, use. But that's not the same as using a mail-order DNA kit, which is never recorded in your official medical history. And these mail-order kits are not nearly as medically reliable, since they only test for a few versions of the most common BRCA genes. A medical lab test would be more thorough, and much more expensive.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

There is usually a marital exception in statutory rape laws. That has been used in the past to make cases go away by getting the family to pressure the victim into marriage.

There are also sometimes exceptions based on age differences so an 18 year old and a 16 year old would not be statutory rape but a 23 year old and a 16 year old would be. That depends on the state.

Yes, but since Louisiana does not now recognise marriage as a defence in rape cases (i.e. a man can be convicted of raping his wife) I want to know what happens if an adult man is convicted of raping his underage wife. Does he get castrated, as presumably he would were they not married?

 

[Soen Eber]

This is intended for cases where underage teens were not physically coerced by the adult, where they were dating across the age of consent. Legally, of course, you can't call it consensual sex since underage teens can't claim consent.

If I remember right, even in "those" states they're also limited to a very short difference of ages; May-Early June, not May-July, let alone May-December.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Most of human existence has been about cranking out as many offspring as possible in hopes some of them live to be able to repeat the cycle. Evolution is hard pressed to keep up with age of consent laws any more than it’s able to expand our monkeyspheres to include a million people in a surrounding city. Most people still manage somehow to behave in a civil, social manner. Or at least mask effectively under ordinary unTrumpian times.

Maybe there's a cogent point in here somewhere but I'm so derailed by your opening sentence that I can't get past it. No, just no, that's not how humans evolved at all. Quite the opposite from 'cranking out offspring', the majority of human existence we opted for fewer offspring who could be better nurtured for much longer times. Resources were limited so too many people in the same group were a liability. That strategy changed only in the relatively recent past, when agriculture could support ever increasing numbers of people.

We have no idea how those groups dealt with age and sexuality, but it's most unlikely to have been the strict age segregation that we see in modern times. This rage against sex with underage minors (post-puberty) has increased significantly just within my lifetime. It's rooted in social mores, not biology. The whole concept of children is relatively new, and it's extending longer and longer all the time.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

This is intended for cases where underage teens were not physically coerced by the adult, where they were dating across the age of consent. Legally, of course, you can't call it consensual sex since underage teens can't claim consent.

I can believe that but even in that case I still have trouble believing that the family of the "victim" would go along with it. If they were fine with the relationship to begin with, it seems to me they never would've gotten the police involved in the first place, or cooperated with them enough for charges to be on the table at all.

 

[Beebo Brink]

I can believe that but even in that case I still have trouble believing that the family of the "victim" would go along with it.

Some parents aren't concerned about the child, so much as their public reputation. Marriage makes it all respectable (in their mind). Just like the families that blame the sexual assault victim for telling on Uncle Billie, who is now in jail, so you've brought shame to the family.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

United States' Child Marriage Problem: Study Findings (April 2021) - Unchained At Last provides some alarming data about child marriage in the US

 

[Casey Pelous]

I can believe that but even in that case I still have trouble believing that the family of the "victim" would go along with it. If they were fine with the relationship to begin with, it seems to me they never would've gotten the police involved in the first place, or cooperated with them enough for charges to be on the table at all.

Dude. You live in Louisiana. You know, home of Jerry Lee Lewis? Jerry Lee "Sure, she's my 13-year-old cousin, but you wouldn't expect me to marry a stranger, would ya?" Lewis? I don't know if it is still true, but what you are describing was known as "courtship" in large parts of the South. You call your brother-in-law, the sheriff, so Cletus will pull his head out and marry the girl.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

But what evidence is adduced by people who follow this school of thought, and how reliable is it? That's what I'm asking. It's presumably backed up by empirical data about re-offending rates, which I'd like to examine.

Though, of course, that data might tell us more about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of particular treatment programmes in prison and about various forms of post-release supervision and about the need for background and safeguarding checks in particular occupations.

For what it's worth, conventional wisdom amongst UK law enforcement is that the quality of post-release supervision and surveillance are very important. Many specialist police and probation officers to whom I've talked can't understand the US policy of allowing public access to sex-offender databases, for example, since they see it as providing a strong incentive for offenders to go underground on release, leave the state, and break off all contact with law enforcement and post-release services, which in turn greatly increases the risk of their reoffending.

I don't know. I, personally, haven't seen any evidence that a pedophile can be rehabilitated. If you say it depends on the quality of post-release, that, to me, suggests that they need constant monitoring to prevent him from reoffending. I guess the question is, is it worth the devotion of manpower versus just keeping them institutionalized?

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

Dude. You live in Louisiana. You know, home of Jerry Lee Lewis? Jerry Lee "Sure, she's my 13-year-old cousin, but you wouldn't expect me to marry a stranger, would ya?" Lewis? I don't know if it is still true, but what you are describing was known as "courtship" in large parts of the South. You call your brother-in-law, the sheriff, so Cletus will pull his head out and marry the girl.

Didn't Tennessee try passing a law making it legal for a grown adult to marry a child of any age somewhat recently? There seems to be a pattern of red states and child marriages.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I don't know. I, personally, haven't seen any evidence that a pedophile can be rehabilitated. If you say it depends on the quality of post-release, that, to me, suggests that they need constant monitoring to prevent him from reoffending. I guess the question is, is it worth the devotion of manpower versus just keeping them institutionalized?

In the UK, a community sentence costs about half as much a month as does a prison sentence for the same time, so I think that, while cost isn't the most important consideration here, community supervision is would be considerably cheaper that permanent incarceration.

I can't immediately find a detailed breakdown by the age of the victim, but the UK government's reoffending statistics, adult sex offenders seem less likely to reoffend, at least in the first year after release from custody, than do many other types of offender (15% for adult sex offenders vs ~26% average for all adult offenders).

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

In the UK, a community sentence costs about half as much a month as does a prison sentence for the same time, so I think that, while cost isn't the most important consideration here, community supervision is would be considerably cheaper that permanent incarceration.

I can't immediately find a detailed breakdown by the age of the victim, but the UK government's reoffending statistics, adult sex offenders seem less likely to reoffend, at least in the first year after release from custody, than do many other types of offender (15% for adult sex offenders vs ~26% average for all adult offenders).

You may be right. I don't know, I just have this deep, visceral response when it comes to the subject.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Fighting demons: The New Apostolic Reformation is waging a holy war against democracy - Salon.com

Doug Mastriano's defeat in Pennsylvania was a step toward dominion, in the eyes of his rabid Christian followers

www.salon.com