Nobody Cares: PRS

Cindy Claveau

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See my reply to Goblin.

Do you not think it appropriate for the court to distinguish between, for example, cases involving a single rape, multiple rapes, multiple rapes involving violence and sadism beyond that inherent in the act of rape itself, and rape followed by murder?
Of course it's appropriate. I don't remember any of us suggesting otherwise.

It still does not detract from the point I made: according to the psychologists/psychiatrists I've read, pedophilia is one of many paraphilias and is largely incurable. I'm all for incarceration in a facility that can at least *try* to help them, but I'm afraid the prognosis is not encouraging short of physically removing his urge to molest.

So take my "research" with a grain of salt. I read it on the internet, but also in a few mental health books.
 

Innula Zenovka

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As always, I'm grateful for your thoughtful replies. But I don't necessarily agree that a sentence must be shorter simply because there exists even more heinous crimes. There are ALWAYS more heinous crimes. I could argue based on your reasoning that a murderer must get a short prison sentence because there are many levels of even more serious crimes they could have committed such as more creative torture before killing the victim and/or more victims.

That said, I do not believe in prison as punishment. I believe in rehabilitation and restorative justice whenever possible. I believe the best use of a life sentence in prison is just to get someone out of society when they are too dangerous to be among "normal" citizens and when they can't be cured. The fact there is always an even worse monster is not a very compelling argument to me.

I don't suspect we'll agree on this. A lot of our difference on this is cultural. But I really do appreciate seeing your perspective.
You use the example of murder. That's so grave a crime that Parliament has made life imprisonment the only sentence available to the courts. However, Parliament as also recognised that even murders can be more or less heinous (more or even more heinous, perhaps), with various aggravating and mitigating factors in each case, which is why it's specified that various types of murder should attract different minimum determinate terms of imprisonment before which release on licence (parole) can be considered.


So yes, in cases of murder a judge in the UK will normally impose a minimum tariff (term to be served before release on licence can be considered) of somewhere between 15 and 35 years (or more), and in rare cases will impose a full-life tariff. In other words, a murder combined with sadistic torture, or a murder with multiple victims, will certainly attract a considerably more severe sentence than an unpremeditated murder with a single victim involving no more violence than that inherent in the act itself. That seems to me completely reasonable.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Of course it's appropriate. I don't remember any of us suggesting otherwise.

It still does not detract from the point I made: according to the psychologists/psychiatrists I've read, pedophilia is one of many paraphilias and is largely incurable. I'm all for incarceration in a facility that can at least *try* to help them, but I'm afraid the prognosis is not encouraging short of physically removing his urge to molest.

So take my "research" with a grain of salt. I read it on the internet, but also in a few mental health books.
If you consider it appropriate to distinguish between various degrees of seriousness when sentencing in rape cases, how can you also consider it appropriate to impose the same sentence -- life without the possibility of parole -- in all cases?

The US administrative sentence of civil commitment for pedophiles is considered a bar to extradition to the US by ECHR countries. Once again, the US is an outlier in penal policy.
 

Cindy Claveau

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If you consider it appropriate to distinguish between various degrees of seriousness when sentencing in rape cases, how can you also consider it appropriate to impose the same sentence -- life without the possibility of parole -- in all cases?

The US administrative sentence of civil commitment for pedophiles is considered a bar to extradition to the US by ECHR countries. Once again, the US is an outlier in penal policy.
Bearing in mind that US law has struggled for generations with balancing pennance and justice. I would never claim that we've gotten it right even now. Especially in extremely conservative states like Texas.

That said, it's a bit of a red herring to me to compare the different penalties for unrelated and differing crimes. I don't follow. We have castrated sex criminals in some states, but we have never considered castration for jaywalking or murder.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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You use the example of murder. That's so grave a crime that Parliament has made life imprisonment the only sentence available to the courts. However, Parliament as also recognised that even murders can be more or less heinous (more or even more heinous, perhaps), with various aggravating and mitigating factors in each case, which is why it's specified that various types of murder should attract different minimum determinate terms of imprisonment before which release on licence (parole) can be considered.


So yes, in cases of murder a judge in the UK will normally impose a minimum tariff (term to be served before release on licence can be considered) of somewhere between 15 and 35 years (or more), and in rare cases will impose a full-life tariff. In other words, a murder combined with sadistic torture, or a murder with multiple victims, will certainly attract a considerably more severe sentence than an unpremeditated murder with a single victim involving no more violence than that inherent in the act itself. That seems to me completely reasonable.
I think the core difference in the legal thinking behind UK sentences vs what I'm thinking of is that UK sentences are mostly wanting to deter more serious crimes, correct? So like if a victim is very brutalized, you want the perpetrator to still have an incentive to not kill them to avoid the harsher sentence, right? I think that's the basic thinking behind a lot of the varying legal punishments.

I understand but respectfully disagree with that fundamental assumption. Criminals are often not thinking deeply about the varying sentences they might get for the crimes. Their core plan is usually to just not caught or they fear their lives are already over anyway[*]. The primary reason I believe it should be a little easier to get life sentences than it is in the UK is just to get some very dangerous people out of society forever. It's more about protecting future victims than deterrence.

I also want to emphasize that my true preference would be to just rehabilitate or "cure" dangerous people as opposed to any prison time at all. To me prison is just a way to deter crime to some extent but also to isolate very dangerous people who we can't really cure.

[*] I realize that what I said about the mindset of criminals is very hard to prove. There has been a lot of research into the mindsets of criminals and and a lot of it seems to suggest that being in a locality with harsher sentences does not seem to deter crime very much. That's part of why I think about it the way I do.
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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I remember some news story I can't find about some dude in New Zealand who offended, did time, and when he got out he turned to elf porn and they threw him back in jail anyway.

The human brain is going to want what it wants and in the instance of pedophilia someone with that attraction has to be super careful when asking for help since the witch burning pyre is at the ready at all times whether they've ever offended or not.
 

Casey Pelous

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Like anyone else, criminals operate, to some extent anyway, from cost/benefit. (I readily grant that their versions of both cost and benefit are more than a little warped.)

To take it to a ridiculous extreme, if we give the death penalty for drunk driving and for murder, the result is going to be a lot of murdered traffic patrol cops and, eventually, a lot of unjustly dead citizens as the cops ramp up their defenses.

It's a cold, awful calculation, but leaving a criminal with nothing left to lose is not a useful strategy.

From my limited knowledge of pedophiles, I don't think there's a surgical answer available, either. I certainly agree with the sentiment, but castration doesn't seem to change one's sexual orientation. Remember how we did that experiment with gay men? Nor do the current onerous boilerplate probation conditions provide any useful outcome. The way it works out, by, basically, sentencing them to a lifetime ban from being within x number of feet of children and requiring, forever, notification of potential landlords and even neighborhoods of the probationer's sex offender status, the probationer is often left with nowhere they can legally exist, let alone operate as a productive member of society. Locally, for many sex criminals, what that means is there are a couple of freeway bridges under which they can live. There's even a national sex offender registry where anyone can search their neighborhood for registered offenders. "When you ain't got nothin' you got nothin' to lose" and suddenly "three hots and cot" doesn't seem all that bad. They hop the bus to recidivism and the revolving door goes around again. With a recidivism rate that hovers around the 40% to 50% mark, it is almost like we are handing out "life sentences on the installment plan."

Whatever the answer is, we sure haven't found it.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I think the core difference in the legal thinking behind UK sentences vs what I'm thinking of is that UK sentences are mostly wanting to deter more serious crimes, correct? So like if a victim is very brutalized, you want the perpetrator to still have an incentive to not kill them to avoid the harsher sentence, right? I think that's the basic thinking behind a lot of the varying legal punishments.

I understand but respectfully disagree with that fundamental assumption. Criminals are often not thinking deeply about the varying sentences they might get for the crimes. Their core plan is usually to just not caught or they fear their lives are already over anyway[*]. The primary reason I believe it should be a little easier to get life sentences than it is in the UK is just to get some very dangerous people out of society forever. It's more about protecting future victims than deterrence.

I also want to emphasize that my true preference would be to just rehabilitate or "cure" dangerous people as opposed to any prison time at all. To me prison is just a way to deter crime to some extent but also to isolate very dangerous people who we can't really cure.

[*] I realize that what I said about the mindset of criminals is very hard to prove. There has been a lot of research into the mindsets of criminals and and a lot of it seems to suggest that being in a locality with harsher sentences does not seem to deter crime very much. That's part of why I think about it the way I do.
The basic principles of sentencing in England and Wales are, within the frameworks laid down by Parliament, the Sentencing Council and the Court of Appeal as explained by the Sentencing Council, are

The judge or magistrates look at the facts of the case and decides what the most appropriate sentence would be, based on the harm done to the victim and how blameworthy the offender is. The sentence imposed on an offender should reflect the crime they have committed and be proportionate to the seriousness of the offence. It is up to the judge or magistrates to decide how much weight to give each factor in the case they are dealing with.

What are sentences for?
There are five things sentencing sets out to do when dealing with the vast majority of adult offenders. While punishing the offender for the crime committed is one of the purposes, there are other important aims, like preventing crime happening in the future so more people don’t become victims of the same offender.

A sentence aims to:

  • Punish the offender this can include going to prison, doing unpaid work in the community, obeying a curfew or paying a fine.
  • Reduce crime – by preventing the offender from committing more crime and putting others off from committing similar offences.
  • Reform and rehabilitate offenders – changing an offender’s behaviour to prevent future crime for example by requiring an offender to have treatment for drug addiction or alcohol abuse.
  • Protect the public – from the offender and from the risk of more crimes being committed by them. This could be by putting them in prison, restricting their activities or supervision by probation.
  • Make the offender give something back – for example, by the payment of compensation or through restorative justice. Restorative justice gives victims the chance to tell offenders about the impact of their crime and get an apology.
So the judge or magistrate must consider and balance a variety of factors, each of them unique to the particular offender and the details and circumstances of their offending, when applying the appropriate sentencing guidelines in each case -- punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation, public protection, and, if appropriate, restitution.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I remember some news story I can't find about some dude in New Zealand who offended, did time, and when he got out he turned to elf porn and they threw him back in jail anyway.

The human brain is going to want what it wants and in the instance of pedophilia someone with that attraction has to be super careful when asking for help since the witch burning pyre is at the ready at all times whether they've ever offended or not.
Yeah, I honestly feel sorry for them and wish we could just cure them. My support of life sentences for child rapists is more about protecting children than punishment. I still support humane prisons for them.

Like anyone else, criminals operate, to some extent anyway, from cost/benefit. (I readily grant that their versions of both cost and benefit are more than a little warped.)

To take it to a ridiculous extreme, if we give the death penalty for drunk driving and for murder, the result is going to be a lot of murdered traffic patrol cops and, eventually, a lot of unjustly dead citizens as the cops ramp up their defenses.

It's a cold, awful calculation, but leaving a criminal with nothing left to lose is not a useful strategy.
Totally agree. I either want to keep the criminal in a humane prison, OR have a plan for how they could become a productive member of society. I certainly would want to make it easier for non violent criminals to get employment and try to live again.

From my limited knowledge of pedophiles, I don't think there's a surgical answer available, either. I certainly agree with the sentiment, but castration doesn't seem to change one's sexual orientation. Remember how we did that experiment with gay men? Nor do the current onerous boilerplate probation conditions provide any useful outcome. The way it works out, by, basically, sentencing them to a lifetime ban from being within x number of feet of children and requiring, forever, notification of potential landlords and even neighborhoods of the probationer's sex offender status, the probationer is often left with nowhere they can legally exist, let alone operate as a productive member of society. Locally, for many sex criminals, what that means is there are a couple of freeway bridges under which they can live. There's even a national sex offender registry where anyone can search their neighborhood for registered offenders. "When you ain't got nothin' you got nothin' to lose" and suddenly "three hots and cot" doesn't seem all that bad. They hop the bus to recidivism and the revolving door goes around again. With a recidivism rate that hovers around the 40% to 50% mark, it is almost like we are handing out "life sentences on the installment plan."

Whatever the answer is, we sure haven't found it.
I agree. I'm not really happy with any potential solutions with current technology.
 

Beebo Brink

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We have castrated sex criminals in some states...
Castration, from what I remember of my sex research readings (admittedly quite some time ago), was never a successful strategy. Sexual predation is rarely, if ever, just about the functional ability and desire to have sex. There is a substantial psychological aspect involving an array of emotions, including anger and the desire to control. Rapists deprived of an erect penis just used objects instead.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Bearing in mind that US law has struggled for generations with balancing pennance and justice. I would never claim that we've gotten it right even now. Especially in extremely conservative states like Texas.

That said, it's a bit of a red herring to me to compare the different penalties for unrelated and differing crimes. I don't follow. We have castrated sex criminals in some states, but we have never considered castration for jaywalking or murder.
Sorry, missed this. My point was that, just as courts recognise varying degrees of seriousness when sentencing for murder, they also recognise varying degrees of seriousness when sentencing cases of child sexual abuse. By saying "all pedophiles should be imprisoned for life, without possibility of parole," even if that imprisonment is in a more medicalised and less unpleasant setting than a normal prison, you remove the possibility of recognising different degrees of seriousness.
 

Katheryne Helendale

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See my reply to Goblin.

Do you not think it appropriate for the court to distinguish between, for example, cases involving a single rape, multiple rapes, multiple rapes involving violence and sadism beyond that inherent in the act of rape itself, and rape followed by murder?
I do get what you're saying, and it does make sense. But I agree with Goblin and Cindy. I honestly, wholeheartedly believe pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated, so releasing them on parole, ever, is just unconscionable. Sure, he'll be on his best behavior for a while, but how soon before his deviant nature takes over and another child is victimized?
 
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That said, it's a bit of a red herring to me to compare the different penalties for unrelated and differing crimes. I don't follow. We have castrated sex criminals in some states, but we have never considered castration for jaywalking or murder.
I find it weird that sex criminals in the US, even if was due to a two year age difference of consensual sex are put on a list making it difficult for them to find housing and jobs but released murderers are not put on any such list.
 
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Soen Eber

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I find it weird that sex criminals in the US, even if was due to a two year age difference of consensual sex are put on a list making it difficult for them to find housing and jobs but released murderers are not put on any such list.
It comes down to how likely someone is to re-offend.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I do get what you're saying, and it does make sense. But I agree with Goblin and Cindy. I honestly, wholeheartedly believe pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated, so releasing them on parole, ever, is just unconscionable. Sure, he'll be on his best behavior for a while, but how soon before his deviant nature takes over and another child is victimized?
Is it the case that all, or even most, people convicted of the sexual abuse of children go on to commit similar crimes after their release from custody?

In the UK, as I suggested earlier, judges already have the power to sentence defendants convicted of most sexual offences, whether committed against adults or against children, to life, and even, if the offending is sufficiently serious and the judge considers it necessary to protect members of the public (or a subset of the public, such as children) to life without the possibility of release on licence.

It's hardly ever used, because judges -- who have spent years, whether as judges or as advocates, dealing with real offenders and real victims in real sets of circumstances -- hardly ever find it necessary.
 

Cindy Claveau

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I want to add a personal story here that might explain a bit about my attitude on the topic.

When my daughter was in college, she started dating a man who gave me this tingle of warning in the back of my head. He was 31, she was 22. He was overly solicitous of my daughter and I (I sensed desperation) and struck me as the kind of man I should probably not rely upon. All that, plus the age difference set off my warning bells.

So out of curiosity, I Googled him. I went deep, into the State of Iowa Sex Offenders lists (he was a native of that state).

I got a hit. He had been arrested for statutory rape with an underage girl. Served probation. No jail. But here he was, on the sex offenders list. And he's apparently doing it again with my own daughter.

I cannot imagine putting logic or fairness into my situation. We're talking about my daughter, not a faceless victim on CNN. I could not in any universe be "fair" when my daughter's safety was involved, nor could I choose to allow my own daughter to be used as some social experiment on recidivism.

So then I had to confess to my daughter what I'd done and show her the results. It could have easily gone south, but it didn't. She confronted him, listened to his tearful pleas, and broke it off.

No regrets.
 

Katheryne Helendale

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Is it the case that all, or even most, people convicted of the sexual abuse of children go on to commit similar crimes after their release from custody?
There is a school of thought that pedophiles are that way from birth, that that is how their brains are wired. Granted, the context of this thought is that we should show leniency because they can't help themselves, that that's just who they are.

In my opinion, that makes them all that much more dangerous. Since there is no way to "cure" them of being pedophiles, it's just a matter of time before they succumb to their "nature" and reoffend. If incarceration does anything at all, it teaches them to be more careful about not getting caught.
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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There is a school of thought that pedophiles are that way from birth, that that is how their brains are wired.
Most of human existence has been about cranking out as many offspring as possible in hopes some of them live to be able to repeat the cycle. Evolution is hard pressed to keep up with age of consent laws any more than it’s able to expand our monkeyspheres to include a million people in a surrounding city. Most people still manage somehow to behave in a civil, social manner. Or at least mask effectively under ordinary unTrumpian times.

See, I just talked myself out of voice of compassion into ‘beat these antisocial deviants into a semblance of order’. Which I hope we can err on the side of reason and understanding of the human condition with an eye toward developing coping strategies for people who would have been relatively normal when we were beating rocks together for fire.