Dems Need To Learn From the UK Election to UNITE under one message: GET HIM OUT!

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bubblesort

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This article from Politico says what I've been saying: GET HIM OUT is the winning strategy. Policies just muddy the water. Getting Trump out is the only issue that matters.

um... I did some checking, to make sure I'm not crazy... but it looks like "Get him out!" didn't actually get rid of Boris Johnson in the UK. He's still prime minister.

It's a nice sentiment, but, you know... it didn't work.
 

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um... I did some checking, to make sure I'm not crazy... but it looks like "Get him out!" didn't actually get rid of Boris Johnson in the UK. He's still prime minister.

It's a nice sentiment, but, you know... it didn't work.
The headline, though, refers to the opinion of a somewhat contentious psephologist and election forecaster's views on the forthcoming US elections.

Why would you expect something she was writing about the US elections also to be true for the British ones, or German or Australian or Polish, or whatever?
 

Innula Zenovka

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I really like his analysis, but what worries me is that his socialist analysis of the US politics and direct political action lacks a key element -- there's no discussion about how to turn this mass political movement into some sort of party structure, which is a crucial part of any socialist or social democratic political movement.

At the moment, there's a popular and charismatic leader with a lot of socialist policies, and he's got an enthusiastic group of people supporting his policies.

What I don't see is any sort of party structure to connect the two.

At some point, Bernie Sanders will no longer be active in US national politics.

That point might well be after two successful presidential terms, or it could be a lot sooner, depending on his political fortunes, his health, and so many other factors, but it's going to happen sooner or later.

What happens to his supporters and their political project then?

And both now and then, how are his supporters going to have a say in proposing and helping to formulate policy, other than by way of particular pressure groups and campaigning organisations to which they may belong?

If you're going to have a socialist movement, then policy can't simply be handed down on high by one particular individual, no matter how much people admire him.
That's not socialism, or not in the sense implied by Boots Riley's analysis.
 
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bubblesort

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At some point, Bernie Sanders will no longer be active in US national politics.

That point might well be after two successful presidential terms, or it could be a lot sooner, depending on his political fortunes, his health, and so many other factors, but it's going to happen sooner or later.

What happens to his supporters and their political project then?
The same thing that happened to the tea partiers after Glenn Beck got cancelled. They moved on to somebody else (Trump). There will never be a lack of people who want to fill a vacuum when society demands a certain type of leader.

The interesting thing is, everybody of Bernie's ideological bent is together behind him. You don't have to tell us to unite, because we already are. People of other ideological bents are not united like this. Bernie supporters used to be a little split between him and Warren, but then Warren attacked him, after being too close to Bernie to attract the feminist Clintonistas, so her campaign imploded. Now the Bernie people went back to Bernie, and the Clintonistas went to Kloubauchar.

So the neoliberal field is split four ways now: Biden, Bloomberg, Buttigeg, and Kloubauchar. If three of them quit today and got behind one of them, the one they pick could defeat Bernie, and eventually Trump. That won't happen, though, because they all think they will be the one plucked from obswcurity to become the front runner in two weeks, on super tuesday. That's a dangerous game for them. If Bernie does too well, then they won't have a neoliberal champion to get behind. Then they will have to fight amongst themselves, while also using DNC corruption and media pressure to attack Bernie, and as we've seen in 2016, they can't do that quietly. When people see them doing that, it pisses them off, and drives them to support populist candidates like Bernie even more.

Whether Bernie wins or loses, though, there will be others who will follow in his footsteps. Alexandria Occasio-Cortez comes to mind (she can run in 2024, I think). The next leader is probably obscure or way out of left field right now. I mean... think back to 2009/2010, when the tea party was in full swing. Trump wasn't even on the radar for those people, until one day he was. I expect a liberal celebrity type will arise to replace Sanders, when the time is right.

Regardless of all that, I'm not 'uniting' behind any neoliberal corporate flunkie. The rest of the party can unite behind Bernie or lose to Trump again for all I care.
 

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I really like his analysis, but what worries me is that his socialist analysis of the US politics and direct political action lacks a key element -- there's no discussion about how to turn this mass political movement into some sort of party structure, which is a crucial part of any socialist or social democratic political movement.

At the moment, there's a popular and charismatic leader with a lot of socialist policies, and he's got an enthusiastic group of people supporting his policies.

What I don't see is any sort of party structure to connect the two.

At some point, Bernie Sanders will no longer be active in US national politics.

That point might well be after two successful presidential terms, or it could be a lot sooner, depending on his political fortunes, his health, and so many other factors, but it's going to happen sooner or later.

What happens to his supporters and their political project then?

And both now and then, how are his supporters going to have a say in proposing and helping to formulate policy, other than by way of particular pressure groups and campaigning organisations to which they may belong?

If you're going to have a socialist movement, then policy can't simply be handed down on high by one particular individual, no matter how much people admire him.
That's not socialism, or not in the sense implied by Boots Riley's analysis.
Understanding that the dominance of the two major parties has consolidated power between them, the movement is to take over one of the major parties rather than to try and form a third or exit to an existing third, since it is prohibitive to do so and gain access to the electoral system.
 

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Seeing someone essentially admitting that - for them - it is Bernie or Burn It All (and that is how that came across) really makes me wish I could wholly speak my mind here.
 
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Lady Darnk Juniorette

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Seeing someone essentially admitting that - for them - it is Bernie or Burn It All (and that is how that came across) really makes me wish I could wholly speak my mind here.
I really posted it for prospective of someone who is bernie or bust, for discussions sake.

Someone who is not me, as I've said in another thread that I'll vote for mike just to spite trump.
 

Lady Darnk Juniorette

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I really like his analysis, but what worries me is that his socialist analysis of the US politics and direct political action lacks a key element -- there's no discussion about how to turn this mass political movement into some sort of party structure, which is a crucial part of any socialist or social democratic political movement.

At the moment, there's a popular and charismatic leader with a lot of socialist policies, and he's got an enthusiastic group of people supporting his policies.

What I don't see is any sort of party structure to connect the two.

At some point, Bernie Sanders will no longer be active in US national politics.

That point might well be after two successful presidential terms, or it could be a lot sooner, depending on his political fortunes, his health, and so many other factors, but it's going to happen sooner or later.

What happens to his supporters and their political project then?

And both now and then, how are his supporters going to have a say in proposing and helping to formulate policy, other than by way of particular pressure groups and campaigning organisations to which they may belong?

If you're going to have a socialist movement, then policy can't simply be handed down on high by one particular individual, no matter how much people admire him.
That's not socialism, or not in the sense implied by Boots Riley's analysis.
I have no idea, hopefully it would start a trend of people actually giving a shit about caring for other people.

Really this a problem moreso of american culture and its years of fetishizing capitalism, trump and his ilk are the results of it.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Understanding that the dominance of the two major parties has consolidated power between them, the movement is to take over one of the major parties rather than to try and form a third or exit to an existing third, since it is prohibitive to do so and gain access to the electoral system.
Yes, and that's what I'm wondering about -- is there any sort of organised movement to turn the Democratic Party into a socialist or social democratic party, rather than an umbrella organization that can include people who, up until 5 or 6 years ago, would have been right wing Republicans, or is there simply a movement to get Bernie Sanders elected?

Is there a coordinated socialist or social-democratic movement within the Democratic Party that's trying to get its candidates elected to internal party posts, to policy-making committees and to the DNC and, if there is, what is Bernie Sanders' relationship with it?
 

Innula Zenovka

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The same thing that happened to the tea partiers after Glenn Beck got cancelled. They moved on to somebody else (Trump). There will never be a lack of people who want to fill a vacuum when society demands a certain type of leader.

The interesting thing is, everybody of Bernie's ideological bent is together behind him. You don't have to tell us to unite, because we already are. People of other ideological bents are not united like this. Bernie supporters used to be a little split between him and Warren, but then Warren attacked him, after being too close to Bernie to attract the feminist Clintonistas, so her campaign imploded. Now the Bernie people went back to Bernie, and the Clintonistas went to Kloubauchar.

So the neoliberal field is split four ways now: Biden, Bloomberg, Buttigeg, and Kloubauchar. If three of them quit today and got behind one of them, the one they pick could defeat Bernie, and eventually Trump. That won't happen, though, because they all think they will be the one plucked from obswcurity to become the front runner in two weeks, on super tuesday. That's a dangerous game for them. If Bernie does too well, then they won't have a neoliberal champion to get behind. Then they will have to fight amongst themselves, while also using DNC corruption and media pressure to attack Bernie, and as we've seen in 2016, they can't do that quietly. When people see them doing that, it pisses them off, and drives them to support populist candidates like Bernie even more.

Whether Bernie wins or loses, though, there will be others who will follow in his footsteps. Alexandria Occasio-Cortez comes to mind (she can run in 2024, I think). The next leader is probably obscure or way out of left field right now. I mean... think back to 2009/2010, when the tea party was in full swing. Trump wasn't even on the radar for those people, until one day he was. I expect a liberal celebrity type will arise to replace Sanders, when the time is right.

Regardless of all that, I'm not 'uniting' behind any neoliberal corporate flunkie. The rest of the party can unite behind Bernie or lose to Trump again for all I care.
I'm not asking you to unite behind anyone -- I'm asking if Bernie Sanders (or "The Squad," or anyone else) is trying either to turn the Democratic Party into some kind of social democratic party or to create a campaigning organisation with the Democratic Party that seeks to promote a socialist or social democratic agenda within the Democratic Party, or to form some other sort of political organisation, or whether it's simply a matter of charismatic left-wing leaders emerging from every four or eight years to lead a populist movement.

Twentieth-century political history tells us that left-wing populist movements organised round charismatic leaders tend either to end in failure or by turning into something very different and very unpleasant, and that, I think, is what worries me about some of Bernie Sanders' supporters -- where they go next, whether or not he wins the Democratic nomination and the presidency.
 

bubblesort

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Seeing someone essentially admitting that - for them - it is Bernie or Burn It All (and that is how that came across) really makes me wish I could wholly speak my mind here.
Bernie or Bust was never meant to be a threat. It's a prophecy. People didn't take the prophecy seriously in 2016, and we got Trump because of it. If you really don't like Trump, maybe it's time to start taking it seriously?

I'm not asking you to unite behind anyone -- I'm asking if Bernie Sanders (or "The Squad," or anyone else) is trying either to turn the Democratic Party into some kind of social democratic party or to create a campaigning organisation with the Democratic Party that seeks to promote a socialist or social democratic agenda within the Democratic Party, or to form some other sort of political organisation, or whether it's simply a matter of charismatic left-wing leaders emerging from every four or eight years to lead a populist movement.

Twentieth-century political history tells us that left-wing populist movements organised round charismatic leaders tend either to end in failure or by turning into something very different and very unpleasant, and that, I think, is what worries me about some of Bernie Sanders' supporters -- where they go next, whether or not he wins the Democratic nomination and the presidency.
Bernie already is the legitimate leader of the Democratic party. Bernie is the only one packing massive stadiums. In a democracy, that is how you get power. By speaking to people. Used to be, you got power by purchasing coverage from news outlets like CNN, and selling primaries to companies like Shadow. That's not actual leadership, and it's not even an effective method for maintaining power any more. It's just rank corruption, done by idiots who are too stuck in their ways to realize the world has changed. The transactional, neoliberal levers of power are crumbling on a global scale right now. I think it's mostly happening because the internet lets us all talk directly to each other, instead of using traditional gatekeepers. I mean... yeah, Zuckerberg is kinda a new media gate keeper, but do you think he really controls content on facebook as tightly as a CNN producer selling positive coverage to African dictators? I don't.

Bernie won leadership of the party when Hillary stole the primary in 2016, and then lost to Trump in the general. Now, there are a few old guard neoliberals like Biden, who are trying to take leadership away from Bernie, but they are tilting at windmills. Only racists and oligarchs want to sacrifice power in order to follow Clinton's ancient, superstitious, neoliberal religion of "everything is a market".

The party will survive neoliberalism, though. The democrats are the oldest party in the country, and we've been through worse than this before. Deriding Bernie's new direction for being populist is like Romans deriding the populist barbarians, after Rome's walls have been breeched and the city is on fire. You can only screw over the working class so long before things start to break down, and a new order emerges.
 

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Oh for fuck sake, about the response I expected.

You can fuck right off with that nonsense, as can anyone else who believes it/follows it.

Anyone at all who refused to vote, voted third party or swapped their vote to Republican as a "protest" last time was not acting on a "prophecy" - they were being absolute fucking wastes of space. Find that too harsh for your wisddle bwain? Too fucking bad, it's not as harsh as you deserve.

The same thing goes for this cycle as well - doubly so actually, since we now know exactly how bad this shit can get (or at least have a damned good idea).

The time for your ideological uprising is after fuck stick is out of office and after we've managed to fix some of the shit he has broken. Not before.

This is like 2016 in at least one regard though: There are still people treating Sanders as though he is the One True Savior.

Welcome to life - it's harsh and doesn't give a flying fuck about your idealism.