Brexit.

[Kara Spengler]

How is this in any way sane? The deal has been negotiated. You're not going to get a different deal. From everything I've read on this forum and elsewhere, it's pretty clear that there are 3 options: this deal, no deal or stay in the EU.

Well, I guess now we know the mystification other countries feel when we try to explain electing trump.

 

[Essence Lumin]

Double post. VVO is very slow today. I did that too and deleted one of them.

 

[Khamon]

 

[Tigger]

Seems like we are having a partial government shutdown of our own:


Meanwhile Corbyn is insisting that its critical we have a general election immediately because of brexit while also being absolutely clear that he will not say what his position on brexit is.

 

[Kara Spengler]

March is going to be an interesting month.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

To be fair to Corbyn (not a phrase I am accustomed to overuse), the Labour Party manifesto will be agreed before the election by a special meeting of the party's National Executive Committee and other stakeholders, in accordance with Clause 5.4 of the Party's constitution:

4. When not in Government the NEC, the Shadow Cabinet, the Parliamentary Committee of the Parliamentary Labour Party (‘PLP’) and the Chair and three vice Chairs of the NPF shall decide which items from the party programme shall be included in the manifesto that shall be issued by the NEC prior to every general election. The joint meeting shall also define the attitude of the party to the principal issues raised by the election which are not covered by the manifesto.

If he pre-empted that meeting by making up policy on the fly there would, quite rightly, be hell to pay.

 

[Beebo Brink]

We know that our respective governments (UK and US) are capable of working as intended, to structure and regulate the activities of their citizens and improve our nation. Yet it's also becoming increasingly clear that both of these governments are failing at a major level under current pressures. Each is treading a path toward disaster that is entirely predictable and recognized -- if not by all, by at least a sizeable portion of the populace, perhaps even a majority of the populace.

And. yet. they. will. not. stop.

Wtf, folks? Wtf?

 

[Tigger]

We know that our respective governments (UK and US) are capable of working as intended, to structure and regulate the activities of their citizens and improve our nation. Yet it's also becoming increasingly clear that both of these governments are failing at a major level under current pressures. Each is treading a path toward disaster that is entirely predictable and recognized -- if not by all, by at least a sizeable portion of the populace, perhaps even a majority of the populace.

And. yet. they. will. not. stop.

Wtf, folks? Wtf?

I try not to fall into the "it was better in the past" trap but.....

It seems to me that our politicians have moved away from acting in the spirit in which it was intended they should act and into gaming the system. Asking themselves: What can I get away with? What can anyone actually do if I do not discharge my duty?

My preferred example is that of a minister lying to government.

At one time being caught lying was the end of a political career. Then we went through a phase where liars and cheats weren't automatically removed from their posts on being caught. Opting instead for outright denials of reality and forcing others to fire them rather than 'do the honourable thing'.

Then we took another step towards trivialising misconduct, firing a minister for lying (or some other infraction) waiting a month or so and then bringing them back in a different post. There are no longer any consequences for their misdeeds.

The highest placed politicians have seats in the safest constituencies, where - to paraphrase Trump - it wouldn't matter if they shot people in the high street, they would still be re-elected because those constituencies ALWAYS return the candidate from their party. They can't lose the election, they can't lose their ministerial posts (for long) they can lie, cheat, steal, fail and always, always carry on without any significant consequence.

 

[Kara Spengler]

We know that our respective governments (UK and US) are capable of working as intended, to structure and regulate the activities of their citizens and improve our nation. Yet it's also becoming increasingly clear that both of these governments are failing at a major level under current pressures. Each is treading a path toward disaster that is entirely predictable and recognized -- if not by all, by at least a sizeable portion of the populace, perhaps even a majority of the populace.

And. yet. they. will. not. stop.

Wtf, folks? Wtf?

Part of the individual failures can be pointed at as individual failures. For example, the whole point of the electoral college was originally to PREVENT someone like donnie but once it was changed should have been job 1 to be eliminated. A no-deal brexit probably happening is precisely because not enough people will agree to what it should do instead after the advisory referendum passes.

In general though, I see both (as big as they are) as just symptoms of a whole. What that final picture looks like can be theorised on forever but I have a feeling in a few decades we will have a better idea how they and other things fit. Possibly it has to do with how issues will change as the climate does.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The problem in the UK is that Parliament and the government are trying to deal with a set of circumstances they're not used to handling.

Britain's relationship with the EU is not, or was not at least, a matter of contention between the two main parties, so much as an internal dispute in both of them, but primarily among the Conservatives. Nor was it one, at least until 2016, which particularly interested most voters. It rarely made the top 10, if that, of voters' concerns in opinion polls.

David Cameron's ill-conceived referendum was intended to put an end to the fight within his own party (ha! ha!) but resulted in a situation where many MPs on both sides of the political divide and the argument about Brexit found themselves at odds, variously, with their party's policy, the majority of people in their constituency who voted in the referendum, their local party and party activists, and their local voters.

This puts tremendous stresses on the parliamentary system, which hasn't really had to handle this kind of thing in the past, and then Theresa May has further confounded the mess by, after her ill-judged snap election, trying to behave as if her minority government enjoyed the crushing majority she expected to win, and generally ignoring parliament as much as possible. As I understand it, Labour have never had any approaches, formal or informal, from the Conservative front bench to try to explore some sort of bipartisan compromise they could both live with, despite the fact that it's been clear for a long time that there's no obvious majority in parliament either for any particular form of Brexit or for ignoring the referendum and remaining.

Add to this the fact that both the government and opposition front benches are, with some notable exceptions (Keir Starmer in particular), the least competent we've seen in a long time, and we have almost the perfect storm.

Ultimately, in the UK at least -- obviously it's different in the US -- the government derives its authority from Parliament, and I think we're now seeing parliament trying to reassert authority in a situation where the government has pretty much lost any authority it did have.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

One piece of encouraging news: TM is now warning that No Brexit is more likely than No Deal:


The speech is interesting because it contains at least one remarkably misleading statement (I'm not sure I go so far as to call it a deliberate lie but it's getting there):


ETA: Looks like someone caught her mistake at the last minute: PM's 'hypocritical' assembly remark dropped

 

[Beebo Brink]

Hardcore Brexiteers push to leave European Union with no deal ahead of key vote

In the placid farming and market town of Boston, which holds the prize as the most Brexit-loving city in Britain, the campaigners to leave say they are ready to roll the dice with no deal.

“I think all the doom and gloom is exaggerated,” said Stevens, the pensioner. “It’s scaremongering is what it is.”

Anton Dani, a local Brexit campaigner, cafe owner and councilor, agreed. “I think it’s time to say no deal. Let’s close the borders. Let’s keep our money.”

 

[Tigger]

 

[Luisa Land]

Corbyn's aim atm are General Elections.
I can not understand what makes him think, he can win these elections
without taking up a clear stance on Brexit...

Present opinion polls, which I read, see Labour behind Conservatives. This is so astonishing considering the disastrous situation of the Conservative Party One would think, that Labour would take huge advantage from this.
But no, the latest poll sees Labour 6 points behind the Conservatives. others maybe 2 points behind

Ppl react differently, but I am sure there are many voters who dont trust Corbyn and accordingly Labour.
It is often brought forward that the Brexiters are stuck in the british past
To me it looks like Corbyn et al are also stuck in an ideological past seeing the EU mainly as stooges of .(multinational) companies
but he is not going to present a convincing strategy , what he would do if being PM of UK, to limit the power of these companies in our time of globalisation

So the real chances which are given in the EU to unite with other more leftwing parties and groups and fight for the interest of the "working people" are missed.. . maybe they are considered as too "blairite" , as counter-revolutionary. .. yes they are right, the daily efforts of some forces and some polticians of the EU are far from being a socialist revolution

But they bring sometimes some advantages for as many citizens. And it is correct, big companies try to influence the politics of the EU for her interests as the do in UK too. All the more it is important to strengthen the forces against. And for me it is obvious there is a better chance for strengenthing in a big UNion than in a small country.

 

[Tigger]

Brexit Preppers (Brexiprep? or does that sound too medicinal?)

‘I don’t trust the government to look after me or my dog’: meet the Brexit stockpilers

I admit I've always thought of preppers as being a bit...well... you know, Batshit crazy. But Im afraid I may have to eat those words, specially when there's no actual food available.

In Cambridge, Diane says she is also stockpiling, though she doesn’t want to go into too much detail. “I’m a bit cautious about being presented as an idiot who has a cupboard full of stuff,” she says. She’s OK about using her surname, though: she is Diane Coyle, OBE, FACSS, the economist, Bennett professor of public policy at the University of Cambridge, former adviser to the Treasury, vice-chair of the BBC Trust, member of the Competition Commission, winner of the Indigo prize … in short, really not an idiot.

“The point about supply chains,” she explains, “is that the things you buy in the supermarket today were on the road last night. Supermarkets now don’t have warehouses full of stuff. If we have a no deal and the delays go up even by 12 hours – although I see there’s a new report saying it is going to be much more – then things will stop being put on the shelves. They will run out. And it’s not just stuff we buy from the EU, and it’s not just fresh produce – it’s quite a lot of things.”

 

[Free]

 

[Govi]

Hardcore Brexiteers push to leave European Union with no deal ahead of key vote

"Pensioner." It seems that a big portion of Brexiteers have no stake in the future because they have only a brief future to which to look forward.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Corbyn's aim atm are General Elections.
I can not understand what makes him think, he can win these elections
without taking up a clear stance on Brexit...

The Labour manifesto is written not by the party leader but by the party's National Executive Committee and various other stakeholders. So, yes, I agree with you that Labour will have to take a clear stance on Brexit in any forthcoming General Election, but it can't take that stance until the election is called and the manifesto is written in accordance with the party's constitutional procedure.

What should be in the manifesto -- particularly regarding Brexit -- is obviously a matter of some urgent debate.

I suspect that the party's position will, should the government fall and there be a general election, that we should seek an A50 extension in order to negotiate a "Brexit for Red Unicorns for All Jobs" and eventually put the result to a referendum, with the alternative being Remain. I don't particularly want that, myself, but I think that's what we'll end up with.

However, it should be noted that Labour doesn't really expect (or, indeed, want) to win the no confidence vote and what we're actually planning for -- I've just received a notification from my local branch about a meeting to discuss how to campaign for it -- is pushing for a second referendum on May's deal vs Remain.

ETA: for clarity -- I should make it clear that this is my local party branch (strongly pro-remain, in a pro-remain constituency with a very pro-EU MP) talking about how to make this party policy by means of a special one-day conference. It's not yet party policy, though plenty of constituency parties and MPs are working to make it so.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Brexit Preppers (Brexiprep? or does that sound too medicinal?)

‘I don’t trust the government to look after me or my dog’: meet the Brexit stockpilers

I admit I've always thought of preppers as being a bit...well... you know, Batshit crazy. But Im afraid I may have to eat those words, specially when there's no actual food available.

It depends on the situation. Just storing food because of no imminent situation is crazy. Storing food when there is a pretty good chance of a problem is not crazy at all. Storing your critical meds at pretty much any time is sane if that is an option.

 

[Porsupah Ree]

As a friend remarked, 'wow, the photo the graun have gone with here is just so totally "don't you think she looks tired?"'

The Guardian view on Mrs May’s deal: dead before the vote | Editorial