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Kara Spengler

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Fixed it for ya.
Yeah, was thinking I should have shortened it on the way home. I have windows in a virtual machine and can not stand 10. I need to see why my kali linux install bombed.
 

NiranV Dean

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Yeah, was thinking I should have shortened it on the way home. I have windows in a virtual machine and can not stand 10. I need to see why my kali linux install bombed.
Windows 10 is basically what Vista was except that there isn't any "finished" and "working" version coming after it.
 

Kara Spengler

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Windows 10 is basically what Vista was except that there isn't any "finished" and "working" version coming after it.
Yeah, it is a 'THIS is what you want people to think is the real version' thing. I bought a copy but only because I needed a windows VM and M$ does not want to sell sane versions.
 

NiranV Dean

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Yeah, it is a 'THIS is what you want people to think is the real version' thing. I bought a copy but only because I needed a windows VM and M$ does not want to sell sane versions.
Funny story that, i was actually super hyped about Windows 9 until it was renamed to 10 because "9" would have made some older games (which don't work anyway) think they are being run on Windows 98. At that point i knew Windows 9 was a dumpster fire. I'm super happy i haven't touched Windows 10 yet. All the issues, all the games i wouldn't be able to play, all for what? DirectX12 which is such a fail that they now made it open for developers to enable it on Windows 7 which just proved that i was right all along and all of Microsoft's stupid company talk about older Windows being unable to run newer DirectX is just complete nonsensical bullshit to generate more money off of its users. Anyone who even remotely knows how computer and software in general work can see through this bullshit, "is not possible" doesn't exist, you can make it possible.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Funny story that, i was actually super hyped about Windows 9 until it was renamed to 10 because "9" would have made some older games (which don't work anyway) think they are being run on Windows 98. At that point i knew Windows 9 was a dumpster fire.
Care to explain how it is Microsoft's fault that ten thousands of lazy programmers didn't get the version check in their programs right back then?

Skipping version number 9 is quite an elegant solution to that problem compared to change myriads of code lines in ancient programs, if still possible today.
 
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NiranV Dean

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Care to explain how it is Microsoft's fault that ten thousands of lazy programmers didn't get the version check in their programs right back then?

Skipping version number 9 is quite an elegant solution to that problem compared to change myriads of code lines in ancient programs, if still possible today.
They could have simply chosen not to change it to 10? What do they care if ancient Windows 98 stuff doesn't work anymore (it doesn't anyway because most of them are 16bit applications and the rest often don't even start in XP anymore)
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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You for sure underestimate the possible impact if it indeed would have had being named as Windows 9.

Just look here at this OSS search engine result: Search for if(version,startswith("windows 9") | source code search engine

And how many occurences are there in Java alone. And closed source nobody will ever know.

So this was indeed an elegant solution to a problem which they did not cause themselves.
 

NiranV Dean

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Well again this wouldn't have been an issue because apps that scan for Windows 98 are basically fossils by now most if not almost all of them wouldn't even run on Windows 10 anyway, how even when lot's of them already started to break apart past XP. If you truly are so desperate to use apps from 98 on 10 there's always virtual machines, then again why would you ever want to run an app 20 years old unless it is a classic game you want to play again, in that case you wouldn't be able to run it anyway on 10.

And "Java" is a pile of crap. You shouldn't base anything on that.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Well again this wouldn't have been an issue because apps that scan for Windows 98 are basically fossils by now most if not almost all of them wouldn't even run on Windows 10 anyway, how even when lot's of them already started to break apart past XP. If you truly are so desperate to use apps from 98 on 10 there's always virtual machines, then again why would you ever want to run an app 20 years old unless it is a classic game you want to play again, in that case you wouldn't be able to run it anyway on 10.

And "Java" is a pile of crap. You shouldn't base anything on that.
You definitely have no grasp whatsoever about how corporate environments do work. Believe it or not, even COBOL is a thing within many companies there, and this language dates back to 1959... many programs, once written, won't shy away so easily.

And if "Java" is crap or not does not matter; that's your opinion. Java was heavily used in many companies when it became a thing, because many developers were trained on it at university, so there is now tons of Java legacy code around which still is in production use. What matters is that Microsoft did not want to break those apps, and for very good reasons, because otherwise the outcry of their customers would have been desastrous.

What breaking compatibility on purpose is going to do you can actually observe right now on MacOS, where the new release Catalina removed support for all 32 bit apps. The result: many indie games developers just shunned the platform completely, because porting it is not worth the effort in their opinion. And that's just one result this dropping support has.
 
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NiranV Dean

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You definitely have no grasp whatsoever about how corporate environments do work. Believe it or not, even COBOL is a thing within many companies there, and this language dates back to 1959... many programs, once written, won't shy away so easily.

And if "Java" is crap or not does not matter; that's your opinion. Java was heavily used in many companies when it became a thing, because many developers were trained on it at university, so there is now tons of Java legacy code around which still is in production use. What matters is that Microsoft did not want to break those apps, and for very good reasons, because otherwise the outcry of their customers would have been desastrous.

What breaking compatibility on purpose is going to do you can actually observe right now on MacOS, where the new release Catalina removed support for all 32 bit apps. The result: many indie games developers just shunned the platform completely, because porting it is not worth the effort in their opinion. And that's just one result this dropping support has.
Lol.

Well Mac is trash too, not sure why you bring it up. Overprized, trash and the only thing they innovate at is new ways to make the money flow from customers by reselling standard features over and over as something "new".

Also just because many people use it doesn't make it good. Java still remains trash and the only thing Java is apparently good at is the automatic garbage collector (which it needs given how quickly and how much memory it can eat and not properly manage otherwise). Java is like Flash used to be.

Also Microdumb "did not want to break" but they broke shitloads of other stuff and made the worst OS since Vista. Actually not that surprising given that Windows has a frequent history of making trash Windows's although usually they only fucked up every second one but apparently it was really just their naming scheme that somehow magically made it work better and since they dropped the 9 and instead jumped to 10 they jumped to the "second" Windows which as history told us was always trash. You make it sound like Microdumb actually cares about customers but Microdumb just like most companies just cares about your money and they will get it anyway, even if you don't pay. The only reason they even noticed was probably because someone at Microdumb is a gamer and tried playing a 98/ME game on it and was so pissed that he made Microdumb change the name so he could play that one game that doesn't require developer fixes/patches to work on Vista and later.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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What Microsoft did to others does not matter in the context of our argument. Your personal opinion about the company does not matter.

MacOS Catalina was only an example to showcase how developers are struggling when compatibility options are disabled on purpose, or working improperly. Nothing more, nothing less. Your personal opinion about MacOS does not matter.

Microsoft faced the problem, that way too many programs were programmed sluggishly, and a "Windows 9" version would have confused them, even broken some. That's not Microsofts fault; but they had to act on it: either break it on purpose, or find an elegant way which avoids it. From that perspective naming the system "Windows 10" was a very easy and elegant solution to this otherwise ugly large scale problem.

And that's the point I was and I am still discussing, nothing more and nothing less: leaving out a version number does not automatically make an operating system bad. Microsoft had very good reasons to do so, it was a justified step. Also note that this has absolutely nothing to do with if something is trash or not; that's not the point, the point is to make it possible to keep stuff running either way when people and businesses are depending on it, and that's exactly what Microsoft did!

Again it's obvious that you have got not much personal experience how IT in a corporate environment does work; you obviously don't care about it, you only care about some ideal of how beautiful programming code should be probably so to say which is the extreme on the opposite side, which is ok. Microsoft has to care about it, otherwise they would be off the market fast.

By the way on a side note it is interesting that Microsoft Windows is still your preferred choice of viewer development, regardless that it sucks, because you only did and do offer Windows binaries. So this means it must sucks less than MacOS or Linux for you, like for so many. Most of us don't choose an OS because it is sexy, but based on what sucks less for our purposes.
 
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NiranV Dean

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And that's the point I was and I am still discussing, nothing more and nothing less: leaving out a version number does not automatically make an operating system bad. Microsoft had very good reasons to do so, it was a justified step. Also note that this has absolutely nothing to do with if something is trash or not; that's not the point, the point is to make it possible to keep stuff running either way when people and businesses are depending on it, and that's exactly what Microsoft did!


Stuff that A doesn't run anymore anyway making this endeavour wasted and B stuff that does not need to run anymore not for companies nor for anyone else other than a few gamers who want to play super old games once again making this undertaking completely wasted. Their solution was stupid and simply not necessary and their solution just proved that once again (as stupid as it sounds) that every second windows is destined to be trash.

You can say whatever you want but if you run a company that hasn't updated to XP or Win7 by now (both of which would run these old apps fine) or in case you want to update to Windows 10 (for whatever reason you'd want to do that as business especially since Win7 is still getting security updates and as far as i know even extended support for businesses) is still running an app that bad and old, possibly as remnants from the medieval times when they opened their company, its your own fault for not going with the times. You can't expect your 20+ year old apps to work infinitely (unless they are decently coded) unless you are the owner of said applications for your company and can simply fix these isues. Once again Microsoft made a solution for something that A: doesn't need one and B: is completely obsolete for both users and companies by now. It's over 20 years now ladies and gentlemen. I worked in a company that was still using software from 20+ years ago and they used (still) XP to go with it. A very simple and elegant solution to this problem on their part, no aid from Microsoft required.

Again it's obvious that you have got not much personal experience how IT in a corporate environment does work; you obviously don't care about it, you only care about some ideal of how beautiful programming code should be probably so to say which is the extreme on the opposite side, which is ok. Microsoft has to care about it, otherwise they would be off the market fast.
I can only tell you from what i've seen from personal experience in a company with 20+ year old software and i can tell you that although it worked it was a chore (due to the PC's being close to stoneage PC's)... but hey they worked and the software worked too, they don't give a shit what Microsoft does. And from friends who work as IT Engineers, Server Admins and coders for companies i know that (given they know what they are doing) either write their own apps, which once again circumvents the issue or only use solutions that don't have these issues in the first place, once again making Microsofts intervention obsolete.

There is simply no reason for Microsoft to step in after such a long time and go for backwards compatibility. Such idiotic decisions are what lead to 32bit support for so long when it should have been gone with or right after XP already.

Also, Microsoft announced that Windows is not their most important thing anymore. Preeeetty sure they give a flying fuck about Windows and they could give a fuck about backwards compatibility.

By the way on a side note it is interesting that Microsoft Windows is still your preferred choice of viewer development, regardless that it sucks, because you only did and do offer Windows binaries. So this means it must sucks less than MacOS or Linux for you, like for so many. Most of us don't choose an OS because it is sexy, but based on what sucks less for our purposes.
You got that damn right. I use Windows because Windows (at least 7) is the least shit out of the three for me. Mac is overpriced and shit, Linux basically requires you to be a rocket scientist to start an application and Windows is so broken that even a swiss cheese has less holes but for what i do, development and gaming as well as multimedia, Windows is still the number one, it doesn't require me to use hacks, go for emulators (unless i want to play DOS games) or use other kinds of "translators" for foreign implementations of apps because my OS isn't supported. Not because of backwards compatibility but because of compatibility and market share.

If there was anything i would change it would be taking Windows 7, removing the NSA spying and possibly hundreds of backdoors Microsoft so carefully implemented in basically all their OS's, adding DirectX12 (which is already possible after they opened it up to be used on 7 for developers willing to do so, which just proves another one of those things i've said a million times in the past: it's all PR bullshit and all Windows's could use all DX's if they just wanted to), adding all security fixes (minus the bullshitery improvements like Defender), those very little few "improvements" they supposedly made and then call it a day.


On a sidenote: I'm not making this rule of "every second windows is trash", i'm just putting my observations from since 98/ME times into words. As stupid as it may sound, just look at the evidence. 98 (good) ,ME (bad) ,XP (good), Vista (bad), 7 (good), 8 (bad), 9 (good, doesn't exist), 10 (bad). Note that "Server" versions and inbetween versions are not counted, only major consumer OS's, why? Because they are technically the same, Example: Vista (6.0), Server 2008 (6.0), 7 (6.1), Server 2008R2 (6.1), 8 (6.2), Server 2012 (6.2) etc.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Stuff that A doesn't run anymore anyway making this endeavour wasted and B stuff that does not need to run anymore not for companies nor for anyone else other than a few gamers who want to play super old games once again making this undertaking completely wasted. Their solution was stupid and simply not necessary and their solution just proved that once again (as stupid as it sounds) that every second windows is destined to be trash.
We are running around in circles - I have made my point, that's all that matters to me. Have a nice day.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Standing, really?



You are always sidestepping, don't stay on topic and are ignorant about facts.

I've wasted enough life time discussing this with you, I've made my point clear and that's it. Think about this whatever suits you, I don't care. Bye.
 

Clara D.

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Windows 10 is going to be complete ass for a while.

Instead of internal testing, they're using telemetry (M$ spyware), so the end users' computers are the test platforms. If an update passes on a VM, they shove it out and wait for error reports to come back.


I now regularly do OS backups so I can roll back when an update screws the proverbial pooch.