2020 Democratic Primary

[Anya Ristow]

Clyburn: DNC should 'shut' down primaries, debates

 

[Salome]

The GOP is trying to use an emergency to undermine social security. Meanwhile House Dems are putting together actual plans:

But, you know, both parties are the same and all.

 

[Cristiano]

How Sanders' 'it's us vs. the establishment' attitude hurts him with black voters

This isn't the race Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders had in mind.

www.cnn.com

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Antonio Moore is right that Bernie needed to come with a black agenda. A SPECIFIC black agenda on top of his policies that will overwhelmingly help a lot of black people and specifically black WOMEN. For all the failures of his rhetoric, the math still dictates that his policies would still do more to help black people because of their class than anyone else. Going to ados101.com, you would see that Bernie's policies would address somewhere around half of those demands for a black agenda.

Why, in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, apparently need a white guy who represents a predominantly white state to come up with a better agenda for them, bearing in mind it needs to be an agenda for which they trust white people to vote?

I think the article from The Nation by Elie Mystal, discussed earlier, makes a very powerful point:

So when you ask older black people what the white electorate, Democratic or Republican, are capable of, they remember. They remember that this country has spent the better part of 40 years lauding the racially destructive policies of Ronald Reagan. They remember that actual progressive choices, like Jackson and Edwards, were rejected by white Democrats. They remember that white people failed to turn on George W. Bush, despite his legacy of incompetence and torture, and instead reelected him. They remember that the majority of white people did not vote for the first black president, spent eight years attacking his every move, and then replaced him with the most small-minded bigot they could find, rejecting an immensely qualified white woman in the process.

Learning these lessons about what white people will do is part of growing up black in this country. Many young black people start out assuming that white people are better than they’ve shown, that the stories of past white failures are things white people have learned from. I have small children and I certainly want them to believe that they will encounter better, more reliable white people in their life than I have encountered in my own. I want them to believe in coalitions, and in allies. But I’m also aging. The hope I try to impart to my kids sometimes feels fraudulent, like I’m raising them for a world I no longer believe will exist. Eventually, I’ll be old enough and strong enough to do for my children what so many black parents have to do: rip the innocence from them and teach them how things really are.

Older black people know white people. They’ve suffered because of them more than anybody else. In the first primary of 2020 in which black people had a voice, the message I heard from the elders was “Vote for Biden, because white people gonna white.” I’m, at best, one last election away from fully agreeing with them.

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’

Black voters opted for Biden because they have no faith that white voters will do the right thing and vote for a true progressive.

www.thenation.com

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Got some theme music for the thread:

 

[Blue Green]

Why, in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, apparently need a white guy who represents a predominantly white state to come up with a better agenda for them, bearing in mind it needs to be an agenda for which they trust white people to vote?

Because 30,000 people in the states die each year due to inadequate health insurance coverage (disproportionately POC) who would not die in the coming 4 years if Bernie's health plan was enacted vs Biden's. Of course, another debate is whether Bernie could actually achieve that with presidential powers from the get-go.

 

[Cristalle]

Why, in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, apparently need a white guy who represents a predominantly white state to come up with a better agenda for them, bearing in mind it needs to be an agenda for which they trust white people to vote?

I think the article from The Nation by Elie Mystal, discussed earlier, makes a very powerful point:

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’

Black voters opted for Biden because they have no faith that white voters will do the right thing and vote for a true progressive.

www.thenation.com

It’s not about what "a white guy" but what any presidential candidate should bring in order to get their votes. That applied just as much to Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. That's why they failed as candidates.

 

[Cristalle]

Their purpose in politics is specifically to break apart the Democratic Black voters by reason of who is truly Black American enough to claim any hardship of race.

Party before country is a problem that is not limited to the Republican Party.

 

[Salome]

 

[Salome]

It’s always insightful when “progressives” express more sympathy and inclination toward the GOP than Dems following an election loss. Lecture after lecture to Warren voters about how they should vote Bernie because his policies are closer to hers on paper, but the minute Bernie gets his ass handed to him by actual votes there is suddenly all this understanding and sympathy for the party most diametrically opposed to the things they claim to care about.

Despite having diverse backgrounds and a variety of ideas on how to best achieve mutual goals, the vast majority of Dem candidates and their supporters recognize that working together toward progress is the most responsible path forward. The vast majority of Dem voters apparently agree — although there are arguments and persuasions to be made about how best to get there.

Only one candidate and his fan base runs to hump the leg of Trumpists whenever they don’t get their way. Because only they and the conspiracy nutters really understand ... something.

That kind of lack of self awareness must be nice.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Of course, another debate is whether Bernie could actually achieve that with presidential powers from the get-go.

That's not a debate. Did you follow the ACA getting passed? Presidential powers can't completely rework the healthcare system. The changes to law and spending require Congress to act. And Sanders does not have the time, resources, or skills to do it. Warren might have put us on the path, but Sanders is not capable of it. And now he's spreading bullshit about Biden threatening to veto M4A when he said he would have to read any bill and ensure it did not fuck people over in the short run (Warren, for example, has a transition period in her plan).

 

[Soen Eber]

They're allowed to make it but I am not obligated to agree or respect it. eta: what you did was try to invalidate my standing to make the criticism.

This is part of the reason that, while I don't have you on ignore I rarely read your posts. High levels of passive-aggressivism to start with, and every post I HAVE read ends with you pointing fingers.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

I don't "need" to do anything. I've stated the point of view and it would be nice if you would engage on the substance of their critiques instead of trying to invalidate standing again because they are "fringe." They may not represent all black people but their views are valid and, personally, more insightful than the people relying on Sellout Clyburn.

But here's the thing - Clyburn very obviously is more closely aligned with the sentiment of most African-American Dem voters by far, so calling him a "sellout" is just vindictive name-calling and doesn't make sense unless the vast majority of black Dems are also "sellouts".

Black Dems who support Biden have made their thought processes clear in commentaries but they've mostly been ignored by Sanders' camp. Ignoring them is in fact something of a trend; South Carolina was the first time in the primary that African-American Dems as a voting bloc had a say at the polls, but their contribution was completely invisible to the Sanders campaign, who decided that state's result was purely the fault of "the establishment being negative about Bernie". And that continued on Super Tuesday, with the opinions of legions of black voters in Alabama and Arkansas being dismissed or rather revised as the opinions of "white southern conservatives, not worth considering" instead.

Bernie's campaign has a (comparatively small) group of black voters who like his ideas, and they (the campaign) seem to think that proves there's nothing wrong with their approach or messaging. And then the primaries roll around showing an overwhelming majority of African-American voters backing Biden, and all they can do is scratch their heads and say "gosh I just don't understand it, they should love Bernie, he's offering free health care". Some of them, especially the vindictive wing of his online support, decided to call the majority of black voters in the country "low information" and claim that they're dupes who have fallen for media disinformation. But what I haven't seen so far is any attempt at introspection. Nobody wants to step back and say "Maybe this is happening because we've made some flawed assumptions about what most black voters actually want; maybe we should not have presumed that M4A somehow entitled us to the black vote without doing some ground research" for instance.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It’s not about what "a white guy" but what any presidential candidate should bring in order to get their votes. That applied just as much to Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. That's why they failed as candidates.

If you would prefer, then, why in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, need anyone to come up with better a agenda for them than one they could put together for themselves, bearing in mind that, at least according to Elie Mystal's article, they're acutely aware -- and probably more so than most, if not all, the candidates -- that this agenda will have to be one that they think white voters are prepared to accept, if the Republicans are not to win by default?

 

[Salome]

And now he's spreading bullshit about Biden threatening to veto M4A when he said he would have to read any bill and ensure it did not fuck people over in the short run (Warren, for example, has a transition period in her plan).

The lies and bullshit team Sanders has been embracing in their last gasps of desperation are pretty disqualifying. Like, if I didn’t loathe them before, I’m utterly disgusted now. Some of it is just political opportunism like you see in some candidates — like the Trump level hypocrisy of ranting endlessly about Biden is coasting on Obama‘s fumes, only to launch a misleadingly edited ad trying to pretend Bernie and Obama had any kind of relationship. But now, after wagging his finger at people for voting due to fears of Trump, his campaign is fearmongering over ridiculous nonsense about Biden cutting Social Security or vetoing health care plans. That, coupled with the insidious and disgusting attempts to portray Biden as having dementia is really some of the most repulsive shit I’ve seen in Dem politics.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Why, in your opinion, do black American voters, and specifically black WOMEN, apparently need a white guy who represents a predominantly white state to come up with a better agenda for them, bearing in mind it needs to be an agenda for which they trust white people to vote?

Because 30,000 people in the states die each year due to inadequate health insurance coverage (disproportionately POC) who would not die in the coming 4 years if Bernie's health plan was enacted vs Biden's. Of course, another debate is whether Bernie could actually achieve that with presidential powers from the get-go.

Are you suggesting that the black voters who have failed to support Bernie Sanders are unaware of the inadequacies of health care provision in the US or that they are unaware of his proposals to remedy this?

The question isn't, from what I read, whether black voters who have failed to warm to the Sanders campaign agree with his policies or not but whether they trust him to govern, and deliver these policies, if white voters allow him to, in a way that will benefit them.

 

[Salome]

“Economic anxiety” lost Sanders more Dem trust and support than “deplorables” ever lost HRC. When making excuses for fascists and racists is more important to you than calling them out, voters — especially older, wiser minority voters — will remember.

But when you're comfortable booing civil rights heroes and calling thoughtful black leaders cowards and sell-outs, I guess you’re beyond the point of caring.

 

[Cristalle]

This is part of the reason that, while I don't have you on ignore I rarely read your posts. High levels of passive-aggressivism to start with, and every post I HAVE read ends with you pointing fingers.

I am stating exactly what I think, that people try to discredit me and don't bother engaging on the substantive argument. Why else would it matter? Why bring it up? Why does who I am and my background matter if we're just talking about ideas? Imagine the response if I was a white man.

 

[Brenda Archer]

What has he done for them?

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’



So...vote for the senator from MBNA?

Sanders may be tone deaf, but he's legit trying to share the economic bounty of the United States. If he's unsuccessful convincing you of that, then fine. If you think his policies don't target black people specifically, then fine. But in what universe is Joe Biden going to share a damned thing but his supposed charm?

Am I wrong in thinking the article is saying that black voters aren't so much voting for Joe Biden or even against Bernie Sanders, but against white voters?

I had pondered what would have happened if Clyburn had endorsed Warren, but the article covers that, too, explicitly. And I gotta say it's not flattering for anyone. We say a lot of Republicans vote against their own best interest. Are we prepared to say that Democrats do, too?

I interpreted that to mean that white voters cannot be trusted, which I’ve been saying too, even though I’m white.

This is a vote for self interest if the voter doesn’t think Sanders is able or willing to overcome the white voters who will not share the American bounty with blacks.

And Biden was willing to play a supporting role in a Presidency that did benefit blacks.

So that much is self interest.

There’s a hopeful energy around the young* Sanders voters and older voters in general don’t have that optimism. I also think this worked against Warren. Even though she showed how she’d fund her plans, a lot of voters just couldn’t believe in it.

America is beaten down. I don’t think Biden can fix it, he’s just one person and we need to get past our reliance on figurehead leaders.

But I can see the Left policies most Americans really want are still a hard sell. I’m still supporting Sanders now (because I still support those policies) but I don’t see any Dems voting against their self interest in the contexts they are in.

 

[Spirits Rising]

Why anyone is still bothering is a mystery to me - not a one is being genuine, at all. Two of them got the benefit of the doubt and proved that the initial impression they'd made was rather correct.

They don't want to hear anything whatsoever contrary to their delusions.

Fuck 'em.