2020 Democratic Primary

[Cristalle]

Because THE PARTY IS THE FUCKING PEOPLE. Do you think we are all little puppets who dance to our corporate masters? If the people wanted Sanders HE WOULD BE GETTING FUCKING VOTES. No one is buying off the voters, and Bloomberg showed that ad spending means sweet fuck all. So we have a choice between two flawed candidates. I can't see Sanders as any more pure and a fucking hell of a lot more naive. I can't see Biden as unmitigated evil, we have that on the Republican side. Sanders can't even start to fix what is broken, and he is just yelling about breaking other things.

For crying out loud. I didn't realize that rank and file were conflating themselves with the elected officials. It's not natural for someone who doesn't have a party identity to assume that kind of mindset. Voters are not bought off, but the politicians are. Look at Henry Cuellar or Joe Manchin. Fucking Joe Lieberman is the reason why the ACA didn't get a public option.

I don't see Biden as "unmitigated evil" and those are your words. But Biden is definitely a threat to Social Security, and a tool of the military industrial complex, and the financial industry.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Bless your heart.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Here, Innula:

Rep. Jim Clyburn’s endorsement gave Biden some serious momentum in South Carolina

Thank you, but it doesn't tell me anything about serious research into why people actually say they voted as they did.

You don't get that information by looking at single questions in opinion polls designed for some other purpose completely -- you do it by actually talking and listening to voters, and trying to understand their concerns and how they -- possibly mistakenly -- perceive things.

OK, we've established, at least according to the poll discussed in the article, that a large number of voters didn't make a final decision until Rep Clyburn endorsed Biden, and that many of them said Rep Clyburn's endorsement was, for them, an important, if not the deciding, factor in their eventual decison.

All well and good, but what specifically does that tell us?

Unless we are supposed to assume that all these voters don't really bother too much about politics and leave it up to Rep Clyburn to make their decisions for them, which I hope isn't the idea, then I want to know why they say Rep Clyburn's endorsement was so important, and to know what they thought of the candidates before the endorsement was issued, and to ask them how they felt when they learned of the recommendation, and to know what it confirmed about Biden that they needed confirming -- that sort of thing.

You need to deal with the electorate you've got, not the one you'd like to have, when it comes to choosing candidates, after all, which means you need to take time to get to know them in order to understand why you're failing to get through to them as well as you'd like.

 

[Salome]

Bless your heart.

You’re literally better off trying to teach to a piece of toast how to use an iPhone.

 

[Cristiano]

 

[Beebo Brink]

Back the early 1980s, I was living in upstate New York just across the lake from Burlington, VT, which is when I became familiar with Bernie Sanders. Then I moved to New York City, where I become familiar with Donald Trump. In the intervening years, those two men both stayed quite consistent to their own characters. There was no sea change in their behavior or beliefs over the decades of their adult life.

Then in the lead-up to the 2016 election, it was as if they were "discovered" by the American public. Suddenly they were relevant. It's not that these two men changed in some way, it's that the American people had changed in what they wanted: a political disrupter. I recognized that shift at the time, even as I eagerly championed Sanders, but after nearly four years of Trump I have a much better appreciation of just what that means, and a keener eye for the danger signs of that type of administration.

Trump and Sanders are flip sides of the coin, but even more so are their hard-core bases. It's not a contradiction for a Sanders supporter to vote for Trump if Sanders doesn't get the Dem nomination. Both are disrupters, both are disdainful of the Deep State/Establishment. Both are narrowly-focused on highly emotional topics, both exhort with OTT rhetoric and wild promises. The parallels unsettle me more and more as we get closer to 2020.

I have no doubt that Bernie Sanders would be a better president than Donald Trump, and better for "our side" of progressive values, at least in the short term. If he's the nominee for the Democratic Party I will vote for him without hesitation. But I have a better visceral understanding of the dilemma so many Republicans may have faced in 2016, when they voted for Trump, hoping their misgivings were unfounded, willing to take the risk in order to promote their own set of priorities.

 

[Zaida Gearbox]

I think Sanders really shot himself in the foot with his "Castro wasn't so bad..." comment. It made a lot of people who might have otherwise voted for him stop and say, "Wait. Wut?" Or as the Babylon Bee said in making fun of him, "Jeffery Dahmer did a lot of bad things, but he was a hell of a chef..."

 

[Salome]

Trump and Sanders are flip sides of the coin, but even more so are their hard-core bases. It's not a contradiction for a Sanders supporter to vote for Trump if Sanders doesn't get the Dem nomination. Both are disrupters, both are disdainful of the Deep State/Establishment. Both are narrowly-focused on highly emotional topics, both exhort with OTT rhetoric and wild promises. The parallels unsettle me more and more as we get closer to 2020.

A fairly decent percentage of Rand Paul “Libertarians” flocked to Bernie. I think a lot of people forget that.

One thing working against Bernie is that in 2016, he had the advantage of Democrats being in power for 8 years. People tend to be angrier at the party perceived to be in power, and even though the GOP was holding the county hostage and the racist Tea Party movement was being treated as legitimate and reshaping that GOP into a more and more extreme party, people still saw Democrats as “in power.”

This time around there is no question the GOP is in power and no question what they’ve done with that power. A majority of people are angry at the GOP. Bernie and those like him are still angry at Democrats. He is unable or unwilling to reconcile that disconnect.

 

[Beebo Brink]

This time around there is no question the GOP is in power and no question what they’ve done with that power. A majority of people are angry at the GOP. Bernie and those like him are still angry at Democrats. He is unable or unwilling to reconcile that disconnect.

Damn, you're good. I learn so much from your insights, which is why I'm delighted to see you posting here again.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

People voting for Biden are comfortable with no change. They're privileged enough to not need an advocate, and it's in their real or perceived financial interests to vote for the status quo.

I really have to disagree with this. Even though I voted for Warren, I would have voted for Biden had she have dropped out of the race before last Tuesday, and it's not because I'm comfortable with the status quo. If I was, I would have just stayed at home and let Trump continue to have his way with our democracy for the next four years. Who will I vote for this November? Whoever the Democratic nominee is. But I prefer it be Biden, because he's got the wherewithal to work with the "establishment" to undo the damage Trump has caused. Sanders, I'm afraid, would rail against the "establishment" and hit a legislative brick wall.

 

[Salome]

...and it's not because I'm comfortable with the status quo.

The entire “Dems are happy with the status quo” talking point is so unfathomably stupid. Most of us weren’t happy with the status quo under Obama for the majority of his term — including Obama, Biden, and many “establishment“ Dem politicians who were eager to get a lot more work done, but were stymied by a suddenly radicalized GOP who had tossed any notion of responsible governing over their shoulders. No Dem is comfortable with the status quo under Trump. Every single Dem candidate has a platform that not only aims to improve upon the current status quo, but aims to progress beyond where we were under Obama. You pretty much have to be listening to Dem bashing 24/7 to swallow anything so ridiculous.

 

[Salome]

You need to deal with the electorate you've got, not the one you'd like to have, when it comes to choosing candidates, after all, which means you need to take time to get to know them in order to understand why you're failing to get through to them as well as you'd like.

There have been multiple threads where many people who voted for Sanders in 2016 have explained why they’re voting against him now. They don’t want to understand. They want to stick their noses in the air and lament how they’re the only ones iconoclast enough to understand what’s really at stake. So they embrace conspiracies and racist tropes that make excuses for the reality that Sanders had four years to address his shortcomings and problems with the electorate and put in zero effort. He took all those donations from hard working people and did fuck all to improve upon his messaging or his outreach to voters.

 

[Salome]

Warren fans, your girl crushed it on SNL:

 

[Cristalle]

Dallas County asks to recount Super Tuesday election results after 44 thumb drives discovered

It’s uncertain which precincts are involved or if the apparent winners from any races will change.

www.wfaa.com

 

[Salome]

The Green Grifter is back, pimping the latest Russia-fed conspiracy about Biden that the GOP and Berners all embraced:

And for extra fun, it’s based on...ableism.

Remember when certain people got all upset that I called Jill a stooge?

 

[Cristalle]

Thank you, but it doesn't tell me anything about serious research into why people actually say they voted as they did.

You don't get that information by looking at single questions in opinion polls designed for some other purpose completely -- you do it by actually talking and listening to voters, and trying to understand their concerns and how they -- possibly mistakenly -- perceive things.

OK, we've established, at least according to the poll discussed in the article, that a large number of voters didn't make a final decision until Rep Clyburn endorsed Biden, and that many of them said Rep Clyburn's endorsement was, for them, an important, if not the deciding, factor in their eventual decison.

All well and good, but what specifically does that tell us?

Unless we are supposed to assume that all these voters don't really bother too much about politics and leave it up to Rep Clyburn to make their decisions for them, which I hope isn't the idea, then I want to know why they say Rep Clyburn's endorsement was so important, and to know what they thought of the candidates before the endorsement was issued, and to ask them how they felt when they learned of the recommendation, and to know what it confirmed about Biden that they needed confirming -- that sort of thing.

You need to deal with the electorate you've got, not the one you'd like to have, when it comes to choosing candidates, after all, which means you need to take time to get to know them in order to understand why you're failing to get through to them as well as you'd like.

That's a discussion that is much longer and deserves a lot more nuance than to be had here, as it involves a lot of history of blacks largely voting in solidarity, to the benefit of the Democratic Party and the roles of the civil rights icons who have been elected into power. Please watch the videos from Antonio Moore. He is one of the leading voices advocating for reparations for American descendants of slavery, and he is in a much better position to discuss the problems inside the black community and black voting habits than I as an immigrant am.

There are a number of blacks who are not content with the Democratic Party and the Congressional Black Caucus because the material returns for black loyalty have been marginal, at best, for decades. And no, that doesn't mean that they are really Republicans; note that cretins like Candace Owens have been trying to exploit that dissatisfaction by creating "Blexit" to encourage blacks to leave the Democratic Party. No, what it really means that they are playing power politics, not identity politics, and seeking material gains for their votes. I agree with those politics. But that discussion would deserve its own thread to be given even the remotest level of respect and nuance it deserves.

 

[Cristalle]

I really have to disagree with this. Even though I voted for Warren, I would have voted for Biden had she have dropped out of the race before last Tuesday, and it's not because I'm comfortable with the status quo. If I was, I would have just stayed at home and let Trump continue to have his way with our democracy for the next four years. Who will I vote for this November? Whoever the Democratic nominee is. But I prefer it be Biden, because he's got the wherewithal to work with the "establishment" to undo the damage Trump has caused. Sanders, I'm afraid, would rail against the "establishment" and hit a legislative brick wall.

When I say the status quo, I do not mean Trump's debasement of the government. I mean the system of gross economic inequality. Biden is not going to fix that, not when he's been in the pockets of the banks and warmongers for decades. What is he going to do to address the conditions that brought us Trump? The world was not sunshine and berries before November 9, 2016. Does he even know? No one in the party leadership is doing an honest assessment of how that could really happen and coming up with a plan for that other than looking out for Russian interference, as if that's the worst of it. But then, as Upton Sinclair said, a man will not understand something if his income depends on his not understanding (paraphrased). The system of consultants, think tanks, media, etc. are not interested in making poor and middle class lives better. They don't want to part with a couple percentage points of their income in taxes. If you're only concerned about the debasement of the government but not the inequality, what do you think is going to happen in 4 years when Biden is up for re-election if by the grace of God he won?

People are pissed off and have a sense of urgency because they can't wait four more years to get the price of insulin down. Of course they're not going to be nice on the Internet. The stakes are higher for them. They need people's solidarity to push our elected representatives into action. Not push up the ones bought out by the people crushing the average person.

 

[bubblesort]

The entire “Dems are happy with the status quo” talking point is so unfathomably stupid.

What do Biden supporters want to change?

 

[Beebo Brink]

Warren fans, your girl crushed it on SNL:

When she retires from the Senate, she can do stand-up. I'd pay to see her!

 

[Shiloh Lyric]

When she retires from the Senate, she can do stand-up. I'd pay to see her!

I freaking love her. She had the plans, she had the record of getting stuff done and the ability to break things down and explain the issues in understandable ways. I'm never going to not be disappointed that I won't have the chance to vote for her.