2020 Democratic Primary

[Anya Ristow]

Why Bernie Sanders is fighting with Planned Parenthood and the Human Rights Campaign I don't agree with everything in the article but it will at least inform you as to what was discussed.

He had a point. His record on women's reproductive rights and human rights is sterling but the tone police are more interested in smashing dissent.

He had a point. When HRC endorsed HRC over Sanders it became clear that their endorsement wasn't available to him, despite being better rated by them than HRC. Why would he seek their endorsement now? The question was a no win scenario. But he did handle it spectacularly poorly.

As for PP, Sanders is not fighting with them. The question lumped them with HRC and Sanders failed to separate them in his answer. Poor showing for the Senator from Vermont, but not a "fight". His platform fully funds PP, by name, and they've praised his M4A bill for including reproductive health care. I don't have time to chase down if he's made this right with them. Dude needs to fix this "establishment" talk. It's a trap to remove it as an avenue of criticism, but that's just life now. He's going to have to adapt.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

I don't think Biden supporters are really the victims of propaganda and media brainwashing. They know about the bad things Biden has done. They know he wasn't arrested while on the way to see Nelson Mandela. They know how he's voted on things when he was in Congress.

I think the thing is, they're simply not convinced that Biden is a bad actor. It might be right to point out that Biden is a centrist Democrat; but people then argue that's a reason to believe he will do all these things that like far-right Republicans would do, which just doesn't make any sense. For example, I for one even as a currently-undecided voter don't believe for a moment that Biden will be cutting Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. That's just not a Democrat thing, even an "establishment" Democrat thing. The administration that he was Vice President of, which as everyone is taking great pains to remind us was "centrist", expanded Medicaid and passed the ACA - and if you remember right, single-payer was actually part of the mainstream discussion back then, and I think 90% of the reason it didn't get passed back then was just because Dems didn't have outright control of Congress.

I don't think a Biden Administration would actually mean absolutely no hope of MFA or free college. He won't agitate for those things as a priority, but if a Dem-controlled Congress passes those things he WILL sign them - I'd bet money on it.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

Biden can’t do it. This is not the Republican Party of the Seventies or even the Eighties. They will not accept anything but submission, and that’s not compromise.

Quite frankly, neither can Sanders. As long as the Republicans hold the Senate, there is very little a Democratic president can do to enact the changes we so desperately need. The best we can hope for is someone who realizes this limitation and expends his energy in undoing all of the damage Trump has done and set the table of change for whichever Democrat wins in 2024. I'm afraid Sanders won't realize this, and will spend all his energy trying to tear down a brick wall with his fingernails and, in the end, get nothing accomplished except clearing the way for another Republican president in 2024.

 

[Beebo Brink]

If anyone can supply a source for this, let me know. For now, all I can offer is that it was a post on Democratic Underground, claiming it was taken from a FB post. Even if unattributed, it presents a perspective that I hadn't properly appreciated before (because yeah, I'm always learning to recognize new layers of white privilege). I have to confess that this humbled me in some of my own criticism of Biden.

Another perspective from an African American Biden voter:

"Let me explain something to you about Joe Biden and why some of the shit that he’s done in his past doesn’t matter.

This old rich white man played second fiddle to a black man. Not just any black man, but a younger black man, a smart black man. Not just for a day. Not 1, not 2 but eight years. He took his cues from this black man who had more power than him and was virtually unknown when he took the presidency, and Joe Biden had been around forever.

He was willing and proud to be his wing man. Not once did he try to undermine him, this black man. Instead Joe walked in lockstep with him, he respected him, he loved and trusted him. He was led by him and he learned from him. And Joe did not have a problem with it.

You tell me what 40+ year “establishment” white politician has ever done that. Joe Biden is cut from a different cloth. And black folks understand that and for good reason. He has shown it.

This is what showing up and being an ally looks like. When black people say they know Joe, this is how we know."

 

[Beebo Brink]

And as a followup, I really recommend this article. I can't remember whether it's been posted before, but even if it has, it's worth a second mention.

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’

Black voters opted for Biden because they have no faith that white voters will do the right thing and vote for a true progressive.

www.thenation.com

Older black people know white people. They’ve suffered because of them more than anybody else. In the first primary of 2020 in which black people had a voice, the message I heard from the elders was “Vote for Biden, because white people gonna white.” I’m, at best, one last election away from fully agreeing with them.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Yet, most Bernie supporters welcome them and claim solidarity with them, as evidenced by Cristalle saying Bubblesort is "on her side". At the very minimum, excuses are made for their attacks upon women and other minorities, all in the name of them being claimed "fellow Bernie supporters". Some/much of what is posted by the "vote blue, no matter who" Bernie supporters dips well into the same territory as well as conspiracy nonsense.

How are we to know the difference? How are we to judge which supporters can be counted upon and which cannot?

Easy. Some percentage of middle class white voters are going to vote for Trump or abstain, no matter what they say, along with some percentage of the 25% and/or religious conservatives of any race. They are all Trump voters regardless of what they say this week.

It’s definitely not reasonable to assume people in other demographics support any attacks aimed at themselves.

Just because someone supports Sanders when only three viable candidates for the Presidency are left, does not mean they endorse every bit of the BS on Twitter and YouTube.

I can’t do anything to control an online mob. Sanders condemned it, but he can’t stop them either.

This is this year’s version of “Never trust anyone over 30.” Which is: anyone in the Republicans’ favored demographic will need to prove themselves. This is the core of Stonekettle’s recent rant. I don’t, btw, know if he’s going for Sanders or Biden. The 25% white demographic is going to include problematic people when the hard Right is offering the enticements of fascism.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Quite frankly, neither can Sanders. As long as the Republicans hold the Senate, there is very little a Democratic president can do to enact the changes we so desperately need. The best we can hope for is someone who realizes this limitation and expends his energy in undoing all of the damage Trump has done and set the table of change for whichever Democrat wins in 2024. I'm afraid Sanders won't realize this, and will spend all his energy trying to tear down a brick wall with his fingernails and, in the end, get nothing accomplished except clearing the way for another Republican president in 2024.

We’re operating on guesswork here, but I believe both Sanders and Biden are aware their role would be limited without the Senate. Any seasoned Senator would by now be fully aware of what he’s dealing with.

It’s too soon to start talking like the Senate has been lost, if it can be flipped. It’s important to turnout that voters believe it is possible.

 

[Cristalle]

I don't think Biden supporters are really the victims of propaganda and media brainwashing. They know about the bad things Biden has done. They know he wasn't arrested while on the way to see Nelson Mandela. They know how he's voted on things when he was in Congress.

I think the thing is, they're simply not convinced that Biden is a bad actor. It might be right to point out that Biden is a centrist Democrat; but people then argue that's a reason to believe he will do all these things that like far-right Republicans would do, which just doesn't make any sense. For example, I for one even as a currently-undecided voter don't believe for a moment that Biden will be cutting Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. That's just not a Democrat thing, even an "establishment" Democrat thing. The administration that he was Vice President of, which as everyone is taking great pains to remind us was "centrist", expanded Medicaid and passed the ACA - and if you remember right, single-payer was actually part of the mainstream discussion back then, and I think 90% of the reason it didn't get passed back then was just because Dems didn't have outright control of Congress.

I don't think a Biden Administration would actually mean absolutely no hope of MFA or free college. He won't agitate for those things as a priority, but if a Dem-controlled Congress passes those things he WILL sign them - I'd bet money on it.

How many times does he have to say that he wants to cut Social Security before you believe him?

As for Medicare, the situation has changed with the ACA but it would not surprise me if he was open to some kind of cuts there, too. But Social Security? Obama put that on the table. That is history. If you think Biden wouldn't sign that, I don't know how to impress upon you that he would, given the multiple times he's already tried to cut it.

As for the other bills... the mainline Democrats (I am going to avoid "establishment" since it's a thing) who take money from healthcare firms are NOT going to support M4A, and the banks will not support free public college as a national endeavor. Buttigieg already showed how that happened. He came into the campaign saying that M4A was the actual compromise, and then turned when the insurance industry $$$$ started flowing in.

 

[Cristalle]

It's easier to eyeroll, Cristalle than to back up the insulting generalizations you make about people who don't vote for the person you want them to.

I was in the middle of writing a more fulsome answer to Innula, since she is more engaged in having a fruitful discussion than berating me.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I have no beef with voters. Somewhere the rank and file got the idea that Sanders' railing against the establishment was an attack on rank and file.

Because he is conflating the "establishment" with the rank and file. I have been a Democrat my entire life, and campaigned for Democrats as far back as the late 70s. And I have heard all of Sander's ideas from other Democrats for at least that long. There is no "establishment" in the sense that Sanders thinks exists. The party is rank and file all the way down. The party is made up of the rank and file that he needs to turn out to vote. I voted for him in the primary in 16. I will not vote for him in the primary this year because I am pissed at him tearing into the party he can't be assed to join unless he is seeking the Presidency (and he will most likely leave again if he isn't nominated). I am not happy with the choice we have left, but I will take Biden over Sanders and vote for either in the general.

 

[Cristalle]

Because he is conflating the "establishment" with the rank and file. I have been a Democrat my entire life, and campaigned for Democrats as far back as the late 70s. And I have heard all of Sander's ideas from other Democrats for at least that long. There is no "establishment" in the sense that Sanders thinks exists. The party is rank and file all the way down. The party is made up of the rank and file that he needs to turn out to vote. I voted for him in the primary in 16. I will not vote for him in the primary this year because I am pissed at him tearing into the party he can't be assed to join unless he is seeking the Presidency (and he will most likely leave again if he isn't nominated). I am not happy with the choice we have left, but I will take Biden over Sanders and vote for either in the general.

Have YOU taken industry money to uphold a position that works against what is supposed to be Democratic values? No? Then he's not talking about you. He's trying to make those purported Democratic values real. Do you care more about those policies that represent these alleged values or your hurt feelings?

 

[Salome]

I am truly happy Bloomberg is out of the race, but I love having zero fucks Bloomberg on the sidelines. I’m so glad so many more Dems are waking up and realizing we have to fight the GOP gloves off.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Have YOU taken industry money to uphold a position that works against what is supposed to be Democratic values? No? Then he's not talking about you. He's trying to make those purported Democratic values real. Do you care more about those policies that represent these alleged values or your hurt feelings?

Then he fucking needs to learn to communicate and stop being an asshole towards the party he wants to support him.

How do you think he is going to accomplish any of his goals with a scorched earth attack on the party he wants to join? I will take more modest policies by those who can accomplish them (and I am looking to the House to take the lead in most policy areas anyway) then someone who pisses on me and says it's raining.

 

[Cristalle]

Fine, and it's all quite possibly correct.

But where is your data to back it up? Please show me the empirical data, or at least tell me how it was collected, and when and where.

We in the British Labour Party are having this debate at the moment, about why we lost so badly in December, and at least we have reports from the people out on the ground canvassing in various constituencies. Doubtless this will be supplemented, in time, by proper research, but at least it's something to go on.

Here, Innula:

Rep. Jim Clyburn’s endorsement gave Biden some serious momentum in South Carolina

 

[Cristalle]

Then he fucking needs to learn to communicate and stop being an asshole towards the party he wants to support him.

How do you think he is going to accomplish any of his goals with a scorched earth attack on the party he wants to join? I will take more modest policies by those who can accomplish them (and I am looking to the House to take the lead in most policy areas anyway) then someone who pisses on me and says it's raining.

Now you know why people hated the 'Deplorables' thing. She should never have said it. Even if it didn't apply to them, it applied to people they knew or associated with and they didn't like it.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

So Clinton made an ill advised point about supporters of her opponent. Sanders made an attack ON THE PARTY HE WANTS TO LEAD. See the difference?

 

[Cristalle]

So Clinton made an ill advised point about supporters of her opponent. Sanders made an attack ON THE PARTY HE WANTS TO LEAD. See the difference?

I didn't realize that that psychology was even happening until this thread. There is serious rot in the culture, and the party is unresponsive to the people. Why embrace that?

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Because THE PARTY IS THE FUCKING PEOPLE. Do you think we are all little puppets who dance to our corporate masters? If the people wanted Sanders HE WOULD BE GETTING FUCKING VOTES. No one is buying off the voters, and Bloomberg showed that ad spending means sweet fuck all. So we have a choice between two flawed candidates. I can't see Sanders as any more pure and a fucking hell of a lot more naive. I can't see Biden as unmitigated evil, we have that on the Republican side. Sanders can't even start to fix what is broken, and he is just yelling about breaking other things.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

And as a followup, I really recommend this article. I can't remember whether it's been posted before, but even if it has, it's worth a second mention.

Black Voters Didn’t Vote for Biden in South Carolina Because They ‘Lack Information’

Black voters opted for Biden because they have no faith that white voters will do the right thing and vote for a true progressive.

www.thenation.com

I would suspect, too, that this attitude, as expressed in an interview with his local radio station this time last year, probably didn't fill many black voters with confidence in Sanders:

When asked by VPR's Bob Kinzel about concerns that he no longer best represents "the face of the new Democratic Party," Sanders, 77, said:

"We have got to look at candidates, you know, not by the color of their skin, not by their sexual orientation or their gender and not by their age," Sanders said. "I mean, I think we have got to try to move us toward a non-discriminatory society which looks at people based on their abilities, based on what they stand for."

He's In For 2020: Bernie Sanders Is Running For President Again

Sen. Bernie Sanders has confirmed to VPR that he is seeking the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination.His official announcement video was posted online…

www.vpr.org

Anyone white who affects not "to see colour" like that sets off all sorts of alarms for me, since this notionally "colour blind" attitude simply ignores the way the social categories "black" and "white" that define us and form part of the framework upon our understanding of society and social relationships is based, same as the categories "male" and "female" and "straight" and "gay."

We're born into a power structure which, whether we like it or not, gives us certain advantages and privileges if we're members of one group and denies them to us if we're part of another -- there's no escaping that, and it's intimately connected with our society's economic structure, too, since some of the advantages and privileges have to do with money, and how easy it is to gain access to it.

So someone from a privileged group simply asking people to ignore all this structural privilege, from which he cannot help but benefit, is incredibly problematic, for the reasons so well explored by this young woman (which is where I found the "colour-blind" quote):

I Supported Bernie Sanders. This Is Why I Can't Anymore

"Sanders and many of his white supporters keep trying to convince the rest of us that he’s an ally to people of color."

www.teenvogue.com

 

[Salome]

Because THE PARTY IS THE FUCKING PEOPLE. Do you think we are all little puppets who dance to our corporate masters? If the people wanted Sanders HE WOULD BE GETTING FUCKING VOTES. No one is buying off the voters, and Bloomberg showed that ad spending means sweet fuck all. So we have a choice between two flawed candidates. I can't see Sanders as any more pure and a fucking hell of a lot more naive. I can't see Biden as unmitigated evil, we have that on the Republican side. Sanders can't even start to fix what is broken, and he is just yelling about breaking other things.