12 Story Hirise Collapses In Miami Beach

[Rose Karuna]

I can't imagine that the building owners didn't know something was seriously amiss with the pool deck and all the standing water in the garage. They had lots of warnings that apparently the Condo Association shared with them. My guess is that they just didn't want to spend the money yet and they did not think it would impact them in such a horrific manner.

Two Days Before Condo Collapse, A Pool Contractor Photographed Damage In Building's Garage

A commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed, said things looked well maintained. Then, he saw the basement-level garage and noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.

www.wlrn.org

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

I can't imagine that the building owners didn't know something was seriously amiss with the pool deck and all the standing water in the garage. They had lots of warnings that apparently the Condo Association shared with them. My guess is that they just didn't want to spend the money yet and they did not think it would impact them in such a horrific manner.

Two Days Before Condo Collapse, A Pool Contractor Photographed Damage In Building's Garage

A commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed, said things looked well maintained. Then, he saw the basement-level garage and noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.

www.wlrn.org

Yeah, I can hear almost any building manager saying "Meh, just a bit of water and a few cracks..." I bet similar warnings signs are in a lot of places and they really drag their heels on getting them looked at.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I can't imagine that the building owners didn't know something was seriously amiss with the pool deck and all the standing water in the garage. They had lots of warnings that apparently the Condo Association shared with them. My guess is that they just didn't want to spend the money yet and they did not think it would impact them in such a horrific manner.

Two Days Before Condo Collapse, A Pool Contractor Photographed Damage In Building's Garage

A commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed, said things looked well maintained. Then, he saw the basement-level garage and noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.

www.wlrn.org

Who would have been liable for the cost? In the UK, the owners of the condos would have been liable for (at least) a large proportion of any remedial work, and I can't imagine US property agreements are that dissimilar.

 

[Rose Karuna]

Who would have been liable for the cost? In the UK, the owners of the condos would have been liable for (at least) a large proportion of any remedial work, and I can't imagine US property agreements are that dissimilar.

I think that's the irony here - the owners themselves, through the condo association, are responsible for the cost of the maintenance of the building and ultimately, any liability associated with the building. If information was withheld from the owners by the condo association management, then that's a different story. However, that does not seem to be what happened here. Enough of the owners knew the risk and voted to put the repairs off, until they basically could not (apparently, repairs at least on the roof, were beginning).

Edited to add that the city inspectors have been very quiet about it all and I'm curious about how they passed their city inspections when they had rebar showing through concrete. There may be some liability there, if that was the case.

 

[Beebo Brink]

I can't imagine that the building owners didn't know something was seriously amiss with the pool deck and all the standing water in the garage. They had lots of warnings that apparently the Condo Association shared with them.

Inevitably there's a lot of finger-pointing to come from such an incident. But keep in mind: this has never happened before. No building in that area has collapsed in such a way, so quickly, without an intervening event such as an earthquake or hurricane. So it's not like the building owners or anyone else was aware that imminent collapse was even a possibility, that they were putting lives at risk by not acting sooner. I'm sure the worst that anyone could have imagined as an outcome is that the building might not have passed inspection. If it was declared unsafe, perhaps everyone would have to move out while repairs were implemented, or that the building would be condemned and everyone would lose their investment.

But catastrophic collapse? It's unprecedented. Learning why this building was destroyed in such an atypical fashion is paramount in determining whether it's just a rare fluke or a harbinger of new things to come along the coast.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

According to several articles that was how it works in this case. The owners association would have used a special assessment divided among the individual owners for major repairs.

eta: Several articles have mentioned that work was about to get under way on the first phase of the recommended repairs.

 

[Rose Karuna]

Inevitably there's a lot of finger-pointing to come from such an incident. But keep in mind: this has never happened before. No building in that area has collapsed in such a way, so quickly, without an intervening event such as an earthquake or hurricane. So it's not like the building owners or anyone else was aware that imminent collapse was even a possibility, that they were putting lives at risk by not acting sooner. I'm sure the worst that anyone could have imagined as an outcome is that the building might not have passed inspection. If it was declared unsafe, perhaps everyone would have to move out while repairs were implemented, or that the building would be condemned and everyone would lose their investment.

But catastrophic collapse? It's unprecedented. Learning why this building was destroyed in such an atypical fashion is paramount in determining whether it's just a rare fluke or a harbinger of new things to come along the coast.

I agree and disagree. I do think that none of the owners ever imagined they were in danger of a collapse.

OTOH - One of the reasons that the area requires a 40 year recertification process was because it has happened before: After A DEA Building Collapsed In 1974, Engineer Created Recertification Program To Prevent Future Disasters

What I think we have possibly learned from this is that recertification should occur even more frequently than every 40 years? Also that associations probably should, from the time the building opens, be required to put a portion of the HOA dues in a trust for the buildings future structural repairs and inspections.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I agree and disagree. I do think that none of the owners ever imagined they were in danger of a collapse.

OTOH - One of the reasons that the area requires a 40 year recertification process was because it has happened before: After A DEA Building Collapsed In 1974, Engineer Created Recertification Program To Prevent Future Disasters

What I think we have possibly learned from this is that recertification should occur even more frequently than every 40 years? Also that associations probably should, from the time the building opens, be required to put a portion of the HOA dues in a trust for the buildings future structural repairs and inspections.

It's all a matter of assessing risk, though. With things like mandatary safety inspections, you're trying to keep the probability that the building will collapse as low as possible.

It's impossible to reduce the possibility to zero, just as it's impossible to eradicate most diseases, but you try to keep the incidence to a bare minimum, and it's not immediately clear that increasing the frequency of mandatory inspections would make the danger of subsequent collapses any less grave.

It might very well be that more frequent, or more rigorous, inspections would be in order, and that they should include additional checks, but that's something that remains to be seen, once more is known about what exactly happened.

 

[Kalel]

The situtation has caused a surge of Emergency audits all over miami primarily focused on older buildings... over two dozen buildings have already failed.. including 2 owned by the county. According to local leaders there has been a lack of funding over the years, about 10 million short on an annual basis. seems to be very few county inspectors too.

over 500 buildings are to be inspected over the next 10 days.

https://news.yahoo.com/twenty-four-miami-apartment-buildings-170000193.html

Residential property audit announced by Miami-Dade mayor already underway

The audit is under the purview of the Department of Regulatory and Economic Resources, focusing on residential buildings five stories or higher, and 40 years or older.

www.local10.com

 

[Soen Eber]

According to several articles that was how it works in this case. The owners association would have used a special assessment divided among the individual owners for major repairs.

eta: Several articles have mentioned that work was about to get under way on the first phase of the recommended repairs.

What do you want to bet that the extra weight of construction materials was the trigger for the collapse? That was a contributing factor in why the 10th Avenue bridge in Minneapolis went down.

 

[Beebo Brink]

If we're going to point fingers (of course we will, that's what we do around here), this is a very good place to start: The tenants themselves deferred maintenance and then much-needed repairs due to sticker shock and penny-pinching.

Majority of Florida condo board quit in 2019 as squabbling residents dragged out plans for repairs

The president of the board of the Florida condominium that collapsed last week resigned in 2019, partly in frustration over what she saw as the sluggish response to an engineer’s report that identified major structural damage the previous year.

Anette Goldstein was among five members of the seven-member board to resign in two weeks that fall, according to minutes from an Oct. 3 meeting, at a time when the condo association in Surfside was consumed by contentious debate about the multimillion-dollar repairs.

“We work for months to go in one direction and at the very last minute objections are raised that should have been discussed and resolved right in the beginning,” Goldstein wrote in a September 2019 resignation letter. “This pattern has repeated itself over and over, ego battles, undermining the roles of fellow board members, circulation of gossip and mistruths. I am not presenting a very pretty picture of the functioning of our board and many before us, but it describes a board that works very hard but cannot for the reasons above accomplish the goals we set out to accomplish.”

Then-Champlain Towers South condo board president Anette Goldstein sent this resignation letter to board members and residents in 2019. Debate over the cost and scope of the work, along with turnover on the volunteer board, dragged out preparations for the repairs for three years, according to previously unpublished correspondence, condo board minutes and other records kept by the homeowners association.

 

[Soen Eber]

If we're going to point fingers (of course we will, that's what we do around here), this is a very good place to start: The tenants themselves deferred maintenance and then much-needed repairs due to sticker shock and penny-pinching.

Majority of Florida condo board quit in 2019 as squabbling residents dragged out plans for repairs

You beat me to posting that!

And a perfect opportunity for China & Russia to shout "Our system good! Democracy Bad!" as well, isn't it?

 

[Beebo Brink]

And a perfect opportunity for China & Russia to shout "Our system good! Democracy Bad!" as well, isn't it?

If you're going to use HOAs as an example of capitalist democracy, yup, we'll lose that fight.

I can't imagine a worse system -- a volunteer committee -- for making difficult decisions that affect the finances of a group of 100-200 people. Even with the best run HOA, you will inevitably suffer clashes between those people who believe in paying into a substantial maintenance fund over the long-term and those who balk until emergency repairs are unavoidable. Or, as in this case, past the time that emergency repairs are needed.

 

[Clara D.]

If you're going to use HOAs as an example of capitalist democracy, yup, we'll lose that fight.

I can't imagine a worse system -- a volunteer committee -- for making difficult decisions that affect the finances of a group of 100-200 people. Even with the best run HOA, you will inevitably suffer clashes between those people who believe in paying into a substantial maintenance fund over the long-term and those who balk until emergency repairs are unavoidable. Or, as in this case, past the time that emergency repairs are needed.

With a HOA it'd be more important that people with unapproved car colors not park outside their garage and other petty bullshit.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

I was listening to NPR on this while stuck in traffic. Apparently the cost of repairs were about 100,000 per unit, and the city was avoiding the elephant in the room too, demanding the HOA repair fences and footpaths while they knew the concrete was crumbling and great hunks of rust were flaking off the frame.

I suspect the building should probably have been condemned. And it's not the only one.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The situtation has caused a surge of Emergency audits all over miami primarily focused on older buildings... over two dozen buildings have already failed.. including 2 owned by the county. According to local leaders there has been a lack of funding over the years, about 10 million short on an annual basis. seems to be very few county inspectors too.

over 500 buildings are to be inspected over the next 10 days.

https://news.yahoo.com/twenty-four-miami-apartment-buildings-170000193.html

Residential property audit announced by Miami-Dade mayor already underway

The audit is under the purview of the Department of Regulatory and Economic Resources, focusing on residential buildings five stories or higher, and 40 years or older.

www.local10.com

This kind of thing can have calamitous long-term effects.

People will recall that the Grenfell fire disaster was caused by unsafe cladding. This turns out to have been used in apartment blocks up and down the country, leaving leaseholders with massive bills and unsaleable properties, despite government assistance towards the costs, and it's a problem that won't go away -- it's left a lot of banks badly exposed, too, since they've lent a lot of money secured on those properties.

If this disaster turns out to be the result of a construction fault, or changing sea levels or anything other than a one-off catastrophic set of circumstances, then it may have similar widespread and long-lasting consequences.

 

[Beebo Brink]

When these buildings went up 40+ years ago, no one was shouting about climate change and rising waters. Undoubtedly that's at least a contributing factor, but what was already known is that sea water is corrosive, sea air is corrosive, and reclaimed land is unstable. When you live that close to the ocean, you're automatically incurring more maintenance burden for your structure.

I'm guessing that many people -- fixated on living close to the ocean -- spent all their available money on the price of the condo and had little left over for hefty maintenance fees. And apparently new owners didn't look too closely into the maintenance issues facing a 40-year old building.

Condo owner Adalberto Aguero told The Post that he and his wife were not aware of the 2018 inspection report when they purchased their one-bedroom unit in mid-2019 — a process that involved an interview with a board member.
.....
Earlier this year, the couple received an assessment for $80,000 over more than a decade for their share of the pending repairs — a price Aguero said seemed steep. “I thought it was a very high amount of money,” he said. But they had renovated their place and loved the condo. “We had no choice. What were we going to do?”

If it's true that no one mentioned the building issues prior to the purchase, that sounds tantamount to fraud.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I already have the impression that this is going to be a perfect storm scenario, with no one easy-to-fix cause. We have a mix of ground subsidence, an improperly poured pool deck letting water stand, cracks in the lower reaches, with water seepage, exposed rebar (a sign of both weak concrete and corrosion inside), and weight on the roof due to repair work. Add to that delays once the first problems were reported, and it leaves a bunch of things that on their own would not have caused a catastrophic collapse (and you can find a mix of many of these issues on any building of that age that hasn't collapsed) but added together caused the structural failure.

This is a systemic failure, and hopefully will lead to both better enforcement of code and a process to inspect older structures and require timely repair work. But this is Florida, so LIBERTY will triumph over fixing an obvious problem.

 

[Khamon]

People also want to live at Hogwarts, as insanely dangerous as it is, because Magic!

 

[Beebo Brink]

I already have the impression that this is going to be a perfect storm scenario, with no one easy-to-fix cause. We have a mix of ground subsidence, an improperly poured pool deck letting water stand, cracks in the lower reaches, with water seepage, exposed rebar (a sign of both weak concrete and corrosion inside), and weight on the roof due to repair work. Add to that delays once the first problems were reported, and it leaves a bunch of things that on their own would not have caused a catastrophic collapse (and you can find a mix of many of these issues on any building of that age that hasn't collapsed) but added together caused the structural failure.

This is a systemic failure, and hopefully will lead to both better enforcement of code and a process to inspect older structures and require timely repair work. But this is Florida, so LIBERTY will triumph over fixing an obvious problem.

And now reports about significant vibrations caused by construction right next door. So yes, perfect storm, death by a thousand cuts, but still a warning. About complacency, if nothing else.