12 Story Hirise Collapses In Miami Beach

[Beebo Brink]

Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say

The building had been sinking at an alarming rate - about 2 millimeters a year - according to a 2020 study.

www.usatoday.com

At first glance, that knowledge seems really damning. It's not until the very end of the article that you get this:

Wdownski said he doesn’t believe anybody in the city or state government would have had a reason to be aware of the findings of the study. The bulk of it focused on potential flooding hazards, not engineering concerns. The study’s mention of the “12-story condominium” was relegated to a single line.

“We didn’t give it too much importance,” Wdowinski said.

The incident has made him think about the possibility of using such data to identify areas of potential structural risk, he said.

 

[Soen Eber]

“We didn’t give it too much importance,” Wdowinski said.

So the Code of Hammurabi verse 233, which the ancient Hebrews copied in the Pentarch is aware of this. But Florida building commisioners think it's no big deal. Oh, right, global warming is a hoax. We're not going to worry about an elevated saltwater water table corroding structural building elements. Move along now, nothing to see here.

If a builder builds a house for someone, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means.

 

[Beebo Brink]

So the Code of Hammurabi verse 233, which the ancient Hebrews copied in the Pentarch is aware of this. But Florida building commisioners think it's no big deal.

How exactly were the Florida building commissioners supposed to know this, big deal or not? This wasn't their study, it was an academic article, and the building was ONE SENTENCE in that research paper.

Wdownski said he doesn’t believe anybody in the city or state government would have had a reason to be aware of the findings of the study.

 

[Soen Eber]

The building was sinking. Not settling, sinking. Next to a salt water beach. You build a large building on a beach, you sink pylons until you hit bedrock, and, if necessary, create a water-proof bathtub with adequate sump pumps.

Someone had to be aware, and they dropped the ball.

 

[Beebo Brink]

The building was sinking. Not settling, sinking. Next to a salt water beach. You build a large building on a beach, you sink pylons until you hit bedrock, and, if necessary, create a water-proof bathtub with adequate sump pumps.

Someone had to be aware, and they dropped the ball.

Who is "someone"? Who is "they"?

The building was actually being inspected under a mandate related to its age; at 40 years old, it qualified. Presumably, if the crisis collapse had not occured, "someone" would have become aware and "they" would have done something, but "they" weren't done with the inspection so I'm not sure how you can expect "them" to know what "they" didn't know.

The researchers who noticed the building sinking rate could have spoken up, but that was over 20 years before the building actually collapsed, so there's enough of a time lag to wonder whether the sinking was predictive.

 

[Soen Eber]

OK, I'm missing some of this gratis a pay wall. Is there another source?

If it was sinking at an "alarming rate", wouldn't there have been obvious cracks?

 

[Beebo Brink]

If it was sinking at an "alarming rate", wouldn't there have been obvious cracks?

The researchers who noticed that the area around that particular building was sinking were studying land displacement. They were not structural engineers concerned with the possible effects of that land displacement on buildings.

A 1990s study of land displacement in the area of the Champlain Towers South complex shows the land sank roughly 2 millimeters a year over the course of the study.

So over 20 years ago their study showed the land around this complex sank 2mm, but this finding was not a focus of the overall research; it was like a footnote. Then the study concluded. This was not an ongoing continual observation of the structural integrity of buildings in that area. The sinking could very well have stopped at some point soon after the study or in the intervening years.

IF the building continued sinking (and so far there's no supporting evidence that it did), and the sinking was not uniform (which there was no evidence for even at the time), that might have placed strain on the building. But as I've read on various commentary from structural engineers, this type of complete and sudden collapse is atypical. This is the type of damage you usually see from either an earthquake or planned demolition explosion. Normally, you would expect to see signs of building stress and that would expose the danger on a long enough timespan to allow for the building to be declared dangerous.

So, were their cracks in the building? Were floors separating from walls? Were units no long level and tilting? We don't know yet.

 

[Beebo Brink]

There were possible warning signs, but this resident at least didn't report it to authorities. I'm sure it didn't occur to her that this collapse was even a possibility. It's just so far outside what we expect to happen.

Missing Woman Complained of ‘Creaking Noises’ in Miami Condo

A woman who is among the 159 still missing after the Surfside apartment block collapse had been woken up by “creaking” sounds the previous night, her son says.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Cristiano]

Sadly, the number of missing is now up to 159, and the death toll so far has risen to 4. A synagogue in nearby Bal Harbour has 90 members of its congregation among the missing. I don't have much hope that many will be found alive that were actually in the building. I am hopeful a portion of those unaccounted for were not there at the time. Still, this is just a stunning tragedy.

 

[Cristiano]

It is pretty common here for people from Latin America to own condos in Miami Beach and live here part of the year or vacation here. Some of the missing include the family of the first lady of Paraguay.

At least 31 Latin Americans are reported missing in the collapse. CNN has the latest from Mexico City.

Search and rescue efforts continue a day after a building in Surfside, Florida, partially collapsed. Follow here for the latest.

www.cnn.com

Family of Paraguay's first lady among missing after high-rise collapse near Miami Beach

Relatives of the first lady of Paraguay were among the dozens missing Thursday after a high-rise condominium building partially collapsed near Miami Beach.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[bubblesort]

There were possible warning signs, but this resident at least didn't report it to authorities. I'm sure it didn't occur to her that this collapse was even a possibility. It's just so far outside what we expect to happen.

Missing Woman Complained of ‘Creaking Noises’ in Miami Condo

A woman who is among the 159 still missing after the Surfside apartment block collapse had been woken up by “creaking” sounds the previous night, her son says.

www.thedailybeast.com

Yeah, the local officials have plausible deniability, as do their contractor buddies. I bet the insurance companies knew, though. If I was in an apartment building in this area, I would call around some insurance companies and get quotes for additional insurance, see how high the premiums are. If they are too high, I would look into moving. Landlords and municipal officials lie, but insurance companies don't fuck around.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Yeah, the local officials have plausible deniability, as do their contractor buddies. I bet the insurance companies knew, though. If I was in an apartment building in this area, I would call around some insurance companies and get quotes for additional insurance, see how high the premiums are. If they are too high, I would look into moving. Landlords and municipal officials lie, but insurance companies don't fuck around.

If US insurers are anything like British ones (and since insurance is an international business, I'd assume that's very likely) you'd probably find your apartment was uninsurable, thus rendering the place unsellable (or certainly unmortgageable), so you wouldn't be able to move.

Underwriters don't take bets they know they're going to lose, and subsidence/building collapse is a risk they don't like to contemplate.

 

[Beebo Brink]

The plot thickens.

Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex (Published 2021)

A consultant in 2018 urged the managers to repair cracked columns and crumbling concrete. The work was finally about to get underway when the building collapsed.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Archer]

Yes, here is another article about that inspection, from the Miami Herald. This is not good. I would hope there is a concerted effort put forward to go through records and reports to identify potential problems with other buildings. In light of how weathering issues are probably increasing, this should definitely be done.

Inspection Raised Concern about Original Design

 

[Arkady Arkright]

Shades of Grenfell...

 

[Free]

Anyone seeing news reports of this?

 

[Beebo Brink]

There's considerable pushback against this claim in the Tweet comments, and many of them seem valid. Such that DeSantis signed within the hour of receiving the mayor's request (which must come first). That first responders in that area of Florida are the best in the field and that FEMA was not specifically needed.

I'm inclined to view the original tweet with a more jaundiced eye than I did at first glance.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Miami condo collapse prompts questions over role of climate change

Experts suggest vulnerability of south Florida to rising seas could lead to destabilization of further buildings

www.theguardian.com

Evernote link because why not

 

[Caete]

There's considerable pushback against this claim in the Tweet comments, and many of them seem valid. Such that DeSantis signed within the hour of receiving the mayor's request (which must come first). That first responders in that area of Florida are the best in the field and that FEMA was not specifically needed.

I'm inclined to view the original tweet with a more jaundiced eye than I did at first glance.

Essentially FEMA should be ready to deploy within hours of any call for assistance they receive but they are not International Rescue. There's a chain of requests that have to happen before they get off their arses and "help".

As I understand it, in this case, the mayor would have to say his local resources are not capable of handling this and reach out to the governor. The governor would move state assets to assist or state that they are not sufficient for this crisis. He would then request a emergency or major disaster declaration from the president who makes the final declaration for federal assets to be deployed.
How a Disaster Gets Declared
https://training.fema.gov/emiweb/downloads/is111_unit 4.pdf

Not to lessen the impact of this event but it is far from a major disaster category imo. I believe the local government made the right choice. Now if it involved more buildings or such, then perhaps local experts and assets would be insufficient and more assistance required.

IMO FEMA's little notice is more of a PR stunt, trying to bury the reminders of their constant trailer fiascos and horrible response times for aid to actually arrive for the true major disasters.
People are still living in FEMA's toxic Katrina trailers -- and they likely have no idea
https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_0768c294-eb91-11e7-babd-972ffa9bc409.html
Current Disaster Responses
FEMA is more of a rebuild/moneyman than an actual boots on the ground type of response unit. (bold is mine)

"At the federal level of government, FEMA is involved in mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery activities.
FEMA also helps the states by providing the following programs:
‹Training programs and research information on the latest mitigation measures
‹Review and coordination of state emergency plans
‹Financial assistance
‹Flood insurance to individuals and businesses in communities that join the National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP)
‹Subsidies to state and local offices of emergency management for maintaining emergency management programs
‹Guidance and coordination for plans to warn and protect the nation in national security emergencies
‹Coordination of services for disaster response and recovery activities. In addition, FEMA may provide supplemental resources when communities and states do not have sufficient resources to protect or assist their citizens, restore essential services that can get the local economy going again, and meet the disaster-related needs of individuals.

11 People Confirmed Dead in Florida Condo Collapse
"More than 300 emergency personnel, including teams from Israel and Mexico, are working around the clock, and the Army Corps of Engineers has been called in.
“This the largest deployment of task force resources in the state of Florida that’s not a hurricane,” Jimmy Patronis, the state’s chief financial officer and fire marshal, said at a news conference earlier on Monday. The same amount of rescuers are on the ground, he said, as there were during Hurricane Michael, a Category 5 hurricane that struck Florida in 2018."

 

[Cristiano]

Letter Warned Of Collapsed Miami Building's Problems Months Ago

"A lot of this work could have been done or planned for in years gone by. But this is where we are now," the condominium board president wrote.

www.huffpost.com