2020 Democratic Primary

Shiloh Lyric

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I'm very irritated by it, because these people want a coronation. They want Biden to cruise through with no vetting, no criticism and to not even try to earn people's votes.
I've re-read this a few times, and, seriously? You do know that everything you said right here applies to Bernie far more than Joe Biden? Who was a Senator and a Vice-President, and has most certainly been vetted. Do you not think that Trump/Republicans have a file on Bernie they intend to use if he's the nominee? And I bet that there are things there most of us don't know because BERNIE has never been very well vetted. In 2016, the media was too focused on "her emails" to vet him, and everyone else was too enamored with him or too busy trying to defend Hillary.

And this Bernie-can-not-be-criticized attitude of many of his supporters is the complete opposite of what I"m seeing and hearing in regards to Joe Biden, who is being put through the ringer FOR A STUTTER. And, after dealing with a stuttering nephew for his entire life, I know what it looks like when a stutterer hits a "wall" in their speech. Joe Biden does that.

So, please. Spare me. Joe Biden is not the devil and Bernie Sanders is not the 2nd Coming. Let's stop acting like either are.
 

Cristalle

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If Biden wins more votes, he wins them. But trying to shut things down early when half the country hasn't voted yet is ridiculous. Just like the Warren people are going to have their say, everyone gets their say.
I've re-read this a few times, and, seriously? You do know that everything you said right here applies to Bernie far more than Joe Biden? Who was a Senator and a Vice-President, and has most certainly been vetted. Do you not think that Trump/Republicans have a file on Bernie they intend to use if he's the nominee? And I bet that there are things there most of us don't know because BERNIE has never been very well vetted. In 2016, the media was too focused on "her emails" to vet him, and everyone else was too enamored with him or too busy trying to defend Hillary.

And this Bernie-can-not-be-criticized attitude of many of his supporters is the complete opposite of what I"m seeing and hearing in regards to Joe Biden, who is being put through the ringer FOR A STUTTER. And, after dealing with a stuttering nephew for his entire life, I know what it looks like when a stutterer hits a "wall" in their speech. Joe Biden does that.

So, please. Spare me. Joe Biden is not the devil and Bernie Sanders is not the 2nd Coming. Let's stop acting like either are.
No, I don't agree. I'm not trying to shut down the process. I am certain that everyone has oppo research on everyone else and they're going to use it. I'm not dumb or unrealistic about that. I believe that yes, everyone should be vetted through the primary. That does include Bernie. A tough primary should toughen up the eventual nominee, because the GOP isn't going to play nice. You can have your criticisms but don't act like just because people push back with other information that we think he can't be criticized. It just means that we may disagree or weigh things differently. Just because I push back doesn't mean I think he can't be criticized; it sounds more like you just don't want any pushback. There are valid criticisms and there are some that I think are garbage. I'll push back on what I think are garbage or places where I think there needs to be more thoughtful conversation.

As for Biden and what's happening to him: he's a shadow of the man he was. There is no way he'd put together the kind of performance against Trump that he did as VP against Paul Ryan. He has lost his polish. The stutter is showing itself now precisely because he has some cognitive decline (I won't say dementia, but there is a very obvious cognitive decline). Why do you think so many people were running in the first place? They expected he'd have problems and he's going to get railroaded by Trump if he wins. And some of the stuff he is doing sure as hell isn't a stutter.

As for this devil/saint thing? That's your caricature.
 
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Eunoli

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If Biden wins more votes, he wins them. But trying to shut things down early when half the country hasn't voted yet is ridiculous. Just like the Warren people are going to have their say, everyone gets their say.
Just curious - and I would never say this except for what's happening now in the US with Covid-19. But, how many people should have to become sick or die to ensure we have primaries in every state?
 

Cristalle

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Just curious - and I would never say this except for what's happening now in the US with Covid-19. But, how many people should have to become sick or die to ensure we have primaries in every state?
Nobody should have to, the way nobody should have to stand in line for 3-7 hours in freezing weather because polling stations closed. I'd agree with the proposal to vote by mail, though.
 
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Eunoli

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Nobody should have to, the way nobody should have to stand in line for 3-7 hours in freezing weather because polling stations closed. I'd agree with the proposal to vote by mail, though.
Who ever would have thought we'd agree on something. The only issue is, I think it may be too late to allow for vote by mail in those places that don't have it (for the primary, that is).
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Nobody should have to, the way nobody should have to stand in line for 3-7 hours in freezing weather because polling stations closed. I'd agree with the proposal to vote by mail, though.
Is there time to organise that over the next few weeks, do you think?

It's only a matter of a few weeks before the pandemic is, in the US, well advanced from what it is in Iran at the moment.

This is a serious public health crisis about to happen.
 

Eunoli

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Is there time to organise that over the next few weeks, do you think?

It's only a matter of a few weeks before the pandemic is, in the US, well advanced from what it is in Iran at the moment.

This is a serious public health crisis about to happen.
I don't think there is - hopefully I could be wrong. There is a large movement to have vote by mail in November, though. Its kind of amazing that we may get away from a lot of voter suppression due to this.
 

Cristalle

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Who ever would have thought we'd agree on something. The only issue is, I think it may be too late to allow for vote by mail in those places that don't have it (for the primary, that is).
You may not think so but we have far more in common than what separates us.

Is there time to organise that over the next few weeks, do you think?

It's only a matter of a few weeks before the pandemic is, in the US, well advanced from what it is in Iran at the moment.

This is a serious public health crisis about to happen.
There isn't, for next week. But the April -June primaries, perhaps.
 

Shiloh Lyric

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As for Biden and what's happening to him: he's a shadow of the man he was. There is no way he'd put together the kind of performance against Trump that he did as VP against Paul Ryan. He has lost his polish. The stutter is showing itself now precisely because he has some cognitive decline (I won't say dementia, but there is a very obvious cognitive decline). Why do you think so many people were running in the first place? They expected he'd have problems and he's going to get railroaded by Trump if he wins. And some of the stuff he is doing sure as hell isn't a stutter.
So you think Bernie is healthier and better able to lead at this point in his life than Biden?
 

Eunoli

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To be honest, I don't think that we need to worry about how either candidate would fare against Trump in a debate. Its probably not going to happen. The man has trouble with words and doesn't seem to know what he's talking about a lot of the time now. Even if he does - it won't be about issues. It will be about either "HE WANTS COMMUNISM" in the case of Sanders - offered without proof - or "WHAT ABOUT BARISMA" also offered without proof or reasoning. There will be name calling. There will be chest pounding. But, its not going to be a debate of the issues.

I believe the only way for either candidate to win the debate is to go in there with lists of lies from Trump and start repeating them - to state VERY SIMPLY what they stand for and then to make "gentle fun" of Trump in a way that comes across as "you're in above your head, buddy" when he starts with the insults and chest beating. Getting flustered or trying to go toe to toe with him doesn't work. We saw that last time.
 

Innula Zenovka

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You may not think so but we have far more in common than what separates us.


There isn't, for next week. But the April -June primaries, perhaps.
I don't think you quite appreciate the severity of what's coming.

This is the body responsible for overseeing all elections in the UK telling the government to postpone this May's local government elections.

 
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Cristalle

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I don't think you quite appreciate the severity of what's coming.

This is the body responsible for overseeing all elections in the UK telling the government to postpone this May's local government elections.

I'm not saying that that shouldn't be an option. Delaying should be on the table, with a plan for voting by mail.
 
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danielravennest

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But despite all this, the platform doesn't seem to have appealed to black voters, or at least older black voters, in sufficient numbers.

If there's nothing wrong with the platform, which you say was drawn up with a great deal of community involvement, presumably by people who knew, or thought they knew, what would appeal to black Democratic voters, then what went wrong?
I have four people on ignore, so I don't know who you are replying to. I'm not black, but I have a lot of neighbors who are, so I can take a stab based on my conversations with them. They remember Republicans trying to kill Obamacare (Affordable Care Act) a few years ago. This resulted in flipping one seat in Congress out of 14 in 2018 and 16 of 236 seats in the state legislature last year. There are other issues and demographic change in Georgia, but that was the big issue that people cared most about.
 

Cristalle

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So you think Bernie is healthier and better able to lead at this point in his life than Biden?
Bernie's been the most energetic candidate out of the entire field, and look at how he performed BEFORE he had a heart attack.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I'm not saying that that shouldn't be an option. Delaying should be on the table, with a plan for voting by mail.
I don't know if you saw this, which I think I posted above:


According to fivethirtyeight, Bernie Sanders' chances of winning the Democratic nomination are now about half what they are of your picking a named card at random from a shuffled pack.

Given the gravity of the impending public health crisis the US is facing in a matter of four or five weeks' time, do contesting the remaining primaries really matter so much?