Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

[Cristalle]

I never said there was any disinformation, only that the possibility existed and should not be dismissed.

There are people here claiming that things I've been posting are alt-right talking points. This is an utterly baseless charge and I'm really sick of it being tossed around as the conventional wisdom. I can understand not liking the format (videos) but that complaint about substance is really crap. One may not like the opinions posted but that doesn't make what has been posted into disinformation.

 

[Han Held]

Where the ever loving fuck did you get the idea that I don't care, that people on the internet aren't real to me? Seriously? I've railed against people who try to weild their supposed experience as a weapon (where and when it crops up) and made no bones about my tone or why I am so quick to "flame" others.

I remember the posts you made on SLU rationalizing your "flame first ask questions later" style. That's where I get it.

You probably didn't outright say that people on the internet aren't real; but the attitude that it's ok to flame people simply because you're having a bad day (which you did outright admit to) strongly implies that they aren't real. Or, at best, "they're only morons and I don't need to think about them" -again, that's fine. As you give, so you get.

And also your button-mashing-badgering over the course of years speaks to that as well.

You're "fine" with a dynamic that simply does not exist.

says the person on the giving end of the catharsis.

Sure, I'm quick to judge when it seems you - or anyone else - is acting on too optimistic or lofty and ideology but frankly speaking ... I learned the hard way that all such a thing does is disappoint.

If you settle for what you're given, that's all you'll ever get. The child labor laws, the labor struggle, the five day week...those weren't gained by settling, and getting them required people saying "we can do this" (optimism) and "we deserve better than this" (ideology).

[edit to add]I spent two weeks in jail because I believed someone at a protest who was spreading lies to get support. You are not the only one in this thread who has learned hard lessons.

 

[Soen Eber]

There are people here claiming that things I've been posting are alt-right talking points. This is an utterly baseless charge and I'm really sick of it being tossed around as the conventional wisdom. I can understand not liking the format (videos) but that complaint about substance is really crap. One may not like the opinions posted but that doesn't make what has been posted into disinformation.

Again, I was not reacting to your post.

 

[Han Held]

I never said there was any disinformation, only that the possibility existed and should not be dismissed. Anyways, it was Han who dismissed it, so this does not directly involve you (tangentially, perhaps, but I was addressing Han's specific comment, and nothing that you have said so far):

I sub to /r/activemeasures, /r/trollfare and /r/disinformation ...that's not something I'd ever say.

I did ask Jolene to go into detail about the extent that facebook memes detered voter turnout. My guess is that's what you're thinking of.

I never said it didn't happen at all.

Let me be very clear; disinformation is alarmingly rampant, is being used by multiple sides and it profoundly bothers me that not enough is being done to either counter, nullify or eliminate it.

 

[Soen Eber]

I never said it didn't happen at all.

Let me be very clear; disinformation is alarmingly rampant, is being used by multiple sides and it profoundly bothers me that not enough is being done to either counter, nullify or eliminate it.

I misunderstood then, thank you.

 

[Spirits Rising]

I remember the posts you made on SLU rationalizing your "flame first ask questions later" style. That's where I get it.

You probably didn't outright say that people on the internet aren't real; but the attitude that it's ok to flame people simply because you're having a bad day (which you did outright admit to) strongly implies that they aren't real. Or, at best, "they're only morons and I don't need to think about them" -again, that's fine. As you give, so you get.

And also your button-mashing-badgering over the course of years speaks to that as well.

says the person on the giving end of the catharsis.



If you settle for what you're given, that's all you'll ever get. The child labor laws, the labor struggle, the five day week...those weren't gained by settling, and getting them required people saying "we can do this" (optimism) and "we deserve better than this" (ideology).

I've covered the reaction button usage already - there is no badgering, no personal meaning to it. It's a reaction. The only personal bit of it pertains/pertained to the old SLU system and the combining of reactions to form a message without wasting thread space.

At this point the "flaming" or more aggressive posts are out of exasperation with one thing or another here - rarely in general with the sole exception being when it comes to politics.

You've also taking my closing remark in the wrong direction entirely: The progress you cite came about with actual work to an end goal in mind, some major bits gained over time - which is all I keep harping on. It's great to be optimistic or have a lofty ideal - work to see it pass, in as many stages as need be. That's it.

 

[Cristiano]

In A Reversal, Biden Wants A Super PAC

Biden once said support from super PACs meant the middle class couldn’t trust a politician. Now, his cash-strapped campaign wants help parrying Trump’s attacks.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Soen Eber]

In A Reversal, Biden Wants A Super PAC

Biden once said support from super PACs meant the middle class couldn’t trust a politician. Now, his cash-strapped campaign wants help parrying Trump’s attacks.

www.huffpost.com

Wellstone had a good comeback to his accepting certain campaign donations. He explained that he would not unilaterally disarm.

 

[Han Held]

You've also taking my closing remark in the wrong direction entirely: The progress you cite came about with actual work to an end goal in mind, some major bits gained over time - which is all I keep harping on. It's great to be optimistic or have a lofty ideal - work to see it pass, in as many stages as need be. That's it.

I'd approach it from a different direction -but I think I pretty much agree with you.

For me, I question if people can affect the big picture, but they can do things like go to local meetings, write representatives, etc -so I think that is more important to do than to wave a banner (any banner, left or right) or shout a slogan.

Nothing gets done without work -I think we agree on that much, at least.

I misunderstood then, thank you.

Either that or I wrote something badly -either way I'm happy to clear up where I'm coming from.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

In A Reversal, Biden Wants A Super PAC

Biden once said support from super PACs meant the middle class couldn’t trust a politician. Now, his cash-strapped campaign wants help parrying Trump’s attacks.

www.huffpost.com

This is pretty telling. Instead of conceding that perhaps he doesn't have the support he'd hoped he'd have, he seems in it to win it at any and all cost. It seems he'll move whichever way the wind happens to blow.

 

[Spirits Rising]

I'd approach it from a different direction -but I think I pretty much agree with you.

For me, I question if people can affect the big picture, but they can do things like go to local meetings, write representatives, etc -so I think that is more important to do than to wave a banner (any banner, left or right) or shout a slogan.

Nothing gets done without work -I think we agree on that much, at least.

Ah yep, sounds like on that we think somewhat similarly.

 

[Anya Ristow]

You're not the only person I've rolled my virtual eyes at

If I don't get a Spirits Rising eyeroll I feel like I must not have tried hard enough

 

[Cristalle]

I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just think that right now our primary focus should be removing Trump from the White House, preferably with someone who can undo some of the damage he has caused and get this country moving in the right direction again. Everything else, right now, is icing on the cake, and completely out of reach if we can't achieve this basic thing.

We all agree on this, but the risk here is that the conditions that brought us Trump persist, leading to worse-than-Trump down the line. It seems unfathomable that the country could have voted for Trump at all, but until we respond accordingly to WHY that happened, it will not be enough to merely reverse some of the damage. People clearly are petty and spiteful enough to go with what should be an obviously horrible candidate, and others who feel like it doesn't matter how they vote will stay home. We need that second group to not feel that way! We will not get that with milquetoast status quo defenders, or frauds with a "public and private position" that fucks over the working class.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

We all agree on this, but the risk here is that the conditions that brought us Trump persist, leading to worse-than-Trump down the line. It seems unfathomable that the country could have voted for Trump at all, but until we respond accordingly to WHY that happened, it will not be enough to merely reverse some of the damage. People clearly are petty and spiteful enough to go with what should be an obviously horrible candidate, and others who feel like it doesn't matter how they vote will stay home. We need that second group to not feel that way! We will not get that with milquetoast status quo defenders, or frauds with a "public and private position" that fucks over the working class.

There's nothing that can be done about the people who deliberately voted to burn the world down; they are lost to us. As for the other group, the ones who sat out the 2016 election because neither candidate was palatable to them, we need to instill in them hope and faith that the system does still work, and help them understand that four more years of Trump would be disastrous for them and everyone they care about. I agree that we need a candidate that these people can believe in. There are a couple that I believe are best positioned to do that. But the in-fighting and back-biting going on in the Democratic Party right now is going to derail any chance we have to fix things.

 

[Salome]

...and I've never known Jolene to go off the deep end.

Because it’s not something that happens. But, then, the pearl-clutching at hurling insults only counts when it’s against the self-proclaimed iconoclasts. As long as the target of hostility and abuse is part of “groupthink” it’s fine.

I peek back into the board and I’m immediately labeled as some sort of mechanism to magically halt debate. But calling them on their nonsense is “othering” them.

To paraphrase: when you choose to roleplay the victim everything looks like a cage.

 

[Essence Lumin]

I peek back into the board and I’m immediately labeled as some sort of mechanism to magically halt debate. But calling them on their nonsense is “othering” them.

Peek?

I don't think 'peek' is the correct word. You suddenly appeared and posted 120 messages in a day. That must be a record for VVO.

 

[Salome]

 

[Han Held]

Because it’s not something that happens. But, then, the pearl-clutching at hurling insults only counts when it’s against the self-proclaimed iconoclasts. As long as the target of hostility and abuse is part of “groupthink” it’s fine.

If you say so.

The sky is blue here, unless it's cloudy and then it's grey. What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Salome]

If you say so.

The sky is blue here, unless it's cloudy and then it's grey. What color is the sky in your world?

It’s black seeing as it’s night.

Oh, sorry. Was I allowed to answer? I don’t want to get accused of driving you off a board again.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

...As for Iraq, if she’s disqualified for that position, then pretty much every political figure that was active at the time is, too, with the exception of a few like Barbara Lee. There were far, far too many people that were enthusiastic about going into Iraq. I remember how lonely it was to be against it before we knew Cheney/Bush had manufactured intel and lied on the national stage to get us into the war...

I made much of this same argument on another thread. I agree that the entire country was so swept up in the post 9/11 hysteria that it was only "normal" to support what was basically fascism at the time. But I wanted to make two points:

1) I'm actually not as concerned about her support of Iraq as I am her actions in Libya. As I stated in my earlier post, I think her hawkishness in Libya gave us reason to doubt that she learned the right lessons from Iraq. Making that error in Iraq is human, but I think she gave us every reason to believe she'd have just done it again.

2) 2001 was an opportunity for leaders to demonstrate they had exceptional judgement. Quite a few politicians and political thinkers demonstrated exactly this during those dark times. Gore, Biden, Kerry, Clinton and many others simply did not. I think it IS reasonable to want to see the presidency go to someone who has 1 in a million judgement. I'd rather see the presidency go to someone who was later proven right by history than someone who was wrong with the group over and over. Unfortunately, the politicians with the best name recognition are usually people who were in the center of most major decisions, no matter what was proven right or wrong later.

We completely agree on Obama. I think he was wise enough to know the wars are a bad idea, but I also agree he found he didn't have the power to do all the great things he wanted. I certainly do not see Obama as a warmonger. I am hesitant to apply the label to Hilary either, but she is certainly closer to being one than Obama.