Coup in the USA?

[Veritable Quandry]

Yes, charges WILL be added afterwards. They use the easiest charge to put the case into the system. Other charges are held back as they gather evidence, and prosecutors may agree not to chage some as part of plea negotiations.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

So looking down the list of people who stormed the Capitol I am seeing charges for the following:



Why aren't they charging these people under Title 18, US Code 2383 - Rebellion or Insurrection? I don't understand.



WHY AM I NOT SEEING THIS CHARGE?

Also, what about murder? Eight people died while these assholes committed a felony.

Why are we glad handling these assholes?

I think it may depend on the points the prosecution has to prove to the jury to gain a conviction.

In particular, what does it have to prove about the defendant's state of mind at the time of the offence to turn simple unauthorised presence in the Capitol building into the more serious offence of rebellion or insurrection?

I ask because I don't know, but it seems to me that there must somewhere be a distinction in law between the criminality of the people whose main purpose was simply to attend a "Stop the Steal" rally, but were fired up by the speeches, including Trump's, followed the mob to the capitol, got caught up in the heat of the moment, entered the building and then, somewhat overawed by what they'd done, just milled around taking selfies, and, on the other hand, those who seem to have attended the rally prepared to execute some pre-agreed plan and who have been filmed moving around inside the building purposefully, in groups, even if they did nothing more.

I'm wondering if the latter group, the ones who moved around as groups, may not be rather more at risk of prosecution for rebellion than some of the other members of the mob.

It's still very early days yet, and they must still be collecting and analysing evidence, as they also investigate the events and communications that led up to the rioting and invasion.

To my mind, it looks as if they're charging many people with the very minimum they can at the moment prove, while keeping open the option of charging some of them with more serious offences when the investigation is further advanced and they have a clearer picture of what led up the events of January 6 and exactly who was responsible for what.

It may also be that the investigators reason that many of the people they've charged have no particular experience of being under criminal investigation and, now that the reality of their situation begins to sink in, they may become more amenable to cooperating with the investigation in the hope of avoiding more serious charges later on.

 

[Beebo Brink]

Some people are claiming they just milled in the crowd and were doing nothing more than sight-seeing inside the Capitol building. Until a Facebook post surfaces in which they said something like "I'm going to Washington. We'll take down the government!". So yes, this is an evolving process focused first on identifying the participants and getting them into the system, followed by digging into their history to find the evidence of their intent.

The crowd of rioters is large enough that I doubt the entire mass of them could be prosecuted for the deaths that occurred, but as their position in the crowd is determined, I expect to see some charged with murder. That's just not going to happen right up front.

 

[Casey Pelous]

So looking down the list of people who stormed the Capitol I am seeing charges for the following:



Why aren't they charging these people under Title 18, US Code 2383 - Rebellion or Insurrection? I don't understand.



WHY AM I NOT SEEING THIS CHARGE?

Also, what about murder? Eight people died while these assholes committed a felony.

Why are we glad handling these assholes?

While I share your frustration, it won't do for the prosecutors to go to trial with, "I have no idea what this asshole did, but he was part of a shitstorm, so lock him up!" It would be the criminal law equivalent of sending in Giuliani to rant about evidence-free conspiracy theories. We saw how well that turned out.

It is a laborious and tedious path from, "This jerk was part of it" to "This exact jerk was exactly this part of it, which adds up to this exact set of charges, and here's the step-by-step proof which demands exactly this punishment."

It is also a laborious and tedious path to getting a bunch of these clowns to sell each other out, casting a wider and wider net, and I guarantee that process is underway.

 

[Arkady Arkright]

"I have no idea what this asshole did, but he was part of a shitstorm, so lock him up!" It would be the criminal law equivalent of sending in Giuliani to rant about evidence-free conspiracy theories Guantanamo Bay.

FIFY...

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

The leader of a far-right militant group says Republican Rep. Paul Gosar told him the US was in a civil war: 'We just haven't started shooting yet.'

I think the only path back to peace is for the authorities to stage controlled 'honeypot' events that lure the extremist MAGA cultists into such violence and destruction that they can be justifiably incarcerated for the rest of their lives. Whittle down their worst and trace them back to their co-ordinators and gradually whittle down their ranks person by person.

Because waiting for them to come for us in their own time will be far worse.

 

[danielravennest]

To my mind, it looks as if they're charging many people with the very minimum they can at the moment prove, while keeping open the option of charging some of them with more serious offences when the investigation is further advanced and they have a clearer picture of what led up the events of January 6 and exactly who was responsible for what.

Unlawful entry of the Capitol is an easy enough charge to present with evidence to a judge, so that they can request a search warrant for their home, social media accounts, call records, etc and gather more evidence. You generally need probable cause to get a warrant.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The federal criminal courts will have some interesting work over the next few years, dealing with both the events of January 6 themselves, and what led up to them, and with prosecutions resulting from investigations of the far right and the various militias, as well as cases already in the system arising from conspiracies to harm state governors and other officials.

 

[Soen Eber]

I think the only path back to peace is for the authorities to stage controlled 'honeypot' events that lure the extremist MAGA cultists into such violence and destruction that they can be justifiably incarcerated for the rest of their lives. Whittle down their worst and trace them back to their co-ordinators and gradually whittle down their ranks person by person.

Because waiting for them to come for us in their own time will be far worse.

It's possible that would constitute entrapment, otherwise it would be practiced more often. More importantly, it could very well leave the government on the hook for damages, injuries and deaths. No government official wants to be a part of an operation that puts innocent lives at risk, and it would reduce even further any efforts to restore faith in the government.

They would need to wait for someone else to organize it, and monitor it heavily. Even in that case, you would be walking a fine line between "not enough" enforcement to lure them into commiting acts of violence ... which would be bad, real bad, and heavy enforcement which would deter these acts and by consequence not being able to build any evidence to go after these guys. And the default action would be "an abundance of caution" because again, lives would be on the line.

Optimally you want to catch them at the planning stage, which pretty much requires having an inside person. This is how they arrest and prosecute terrorists.

Another option would be to pass laws allowing "open warrants" against everyone arrested even if the police deliberately provoked it during Black Lives Matter protests peace marches union strikes the Jan 6 insurrection so police and the FBI can monitor everyone's communications, phones & mail, but that could cause another basket of problems.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I really don't think the Feds will need to resort to any sort of subterfuge to identify and prosecute any of these kind of people.

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

It's possible that would constitute entrapment, otherwise it would be practiced more often. More importantly, it could very well leave the government on the hook for damages, injuries and deaths. No government official wants to be a part of an operation that puts innocent lives at risk, and it would reduce even further any efforts to restore faith in the government.

They would need to wait for someone else to organize it, and monitor it heavily. Even in that case, you would be walking a fine line between "not enough" enforcement to lure them into commiting acts of violence ... which would be bad, real bad, and heavy enforcement which would deter these acts and by consequence not being able to build any evidence to go after these guys. And the default action would be "an abundance of caution" because again, lives would be on the line.

Optimally you want to catch them at the planning stage, which pretty much requires having an inside person.

Playing the hopeful/reactive/preventatitve game isn't working. Their militant rhetoric is feeding on itself while they radicalize more and more Americans.

Either the authorities use that momentum to their advantage and direct it into less harmful ways that can be prosecuted, or they'll be playing catch up with increasingly insurrection-sympathetic law enforcement officers.

There must be a proactive strategy to deal with these radicalized extremists while our government has the strength to act on one.

Otherwise, we're just ineffectively delaying the inescapable transition into a lawless banana republic.

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

I really don't think the Feds will need to resort to any sort of subterfuge to identify and prosecute any of these kind of people.

If they do for drug busts, why not with insurrectionists?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Yeah, but people engaged in the narcotics trade don't normally document their activities by livestreaming their deals on Facebook.

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

Yeah, but people engaged in the narcotics trade don't normally document their activities by livestreaming their deals on Facebook.

If rounding up their useful idiots produces enough dirt on their instigators to lock them up indefinitely, great. But it would help if public sentiment were turned -against- them at the same time as well.

That means giving them enough leeway to incriminate themselves in horrible ways, not just accusing them of things they were prevented from doing.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

And yet republican congress critters continue seem to think that their base is vehemently pro-trump and they will fail to convict him.

Isolated examples of people having had enough with their antics makes no difference, the media they watch won't cover it... and it lulls the rest of us into feeling slightly more smug and secure. And soon, those who said they had enough... will go right back to paying lip service to the right wing as their media confuses and defuses memory of insurrection day.

 

[Essence Lumin]

Can charges be added afterwards? Would they be choosing the charge most likely to stick first to then add more when they have more details/proof?

Yes if the charges are not substantially for the same crime.

The Prohibition Against Double Jeopardy

Learn what double jeopardy means, when it applies, and what circumstances can lead to a retrial or multiple trials.

www.nolo.com

 

[Veritable Quandry]

And the surprisingly sane attorney hired to take the lead on Trump’s impeachment unsurprisingly quit.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-top-impeachment-lawyer-left-013032667.html

 

[Pamela]

Playing the hopeful/reactive/preventatitve game isn't working. Their militant rhetoric is feeding on itself while they radicalize more and more Americans.

Either the authorities use that momentum to their advantage and direct it into less harmful ways that can be prosecuted, or they'll be playing catch up with increasingly insurrection-sympathetic law enforcement officers.

There must be a proactive strategy to deal with these radicalized extremists while our government has the strength to act on one.

Otherwise, we're just ineffectively delaying the inescapable transition into a lawless banana republic.

I think the Biden administration is going to handle it, to the extent it can be handled. So far they have been very smart about everything.

But no one’s ever had experience dealing with the zombie apocalypse and that’s what this feels like.