Coup in the USA?

[Jolene Benoir]

But if they went back to their hotel and heard that a friend went to the Capitol, then they are not a witness and they have no direct knowledge. That's hearsay.

Right. My implication in the above scenario was that the person did indeed witness the crime and then provided material support by helping them leave or deleting evidence.

We currently do charge people as accessories after the fact even if they did not witness the murder if they provide assistance in covering up the crime.

 

[Soen Eber]

For some unknown reason (other than my persistent addiction to history), I am now re-reading James McPherson's classic "Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era". His details on the political and domestic chaos preceding the war are absolutely eye-opening. I knew most of this stuff already since my college studies, but re-reading it in the context of the Trumpian era is both comforting and scary -- comforting because we always seem to have had "fire-eaters" and disrupters among us, then and now, and yet managed to get through; but also scary because in the early 19th century we were on a predictable road to a war that killed more Americans than any other single conflict in our history; more even than the current Coronavirus pandemic which has claimed over 400,000 dead in one year. I try not to ponder the gory details much, hoping that we've learned enough to get around it this time. But after Jan 6 I'm not nearly as sanguine as I used to be.

The next Civil war won't be with front lines and trenches. It's already being fought in the pages of social media and regional prejudices.

Some of us still have to learn, that civilization is a thin veneer, the skin of a soap bubble. Only collective will keeps it going, and we are always closer to Russian Civil War scenarios than we can think or imagine.

 

[Essence Lumin]

Here in NL we have a "report crime anonymously line" , a police phone number where you can report what you know about criminal activities, without being asked personal identity questions.
Very helpful at times, if you want to point the police in the right direction, without getting further involved.

There is crimestoppers here to report crimes anonymously. Who knows how anonymous it is? If I cared I would be using a vpn or two to send them a text.

For decades we had McGruff the Crime Dog to take a bite out of crime. The actor who voiced him got busted with 1000 marijuana plants and 9000 rounds of ammunition so is serving 16 years.

 

[Sid]

I think that the police / justice department would shoot in their own feet if they abused that system.
Once there is one story out there that they used phone/Internet information to track an anonymous source down, the whole anonymous reporting would be dead in the water for ever, I guess.
So I think it's pretty safe to use that tip line.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

More info about the removed Guard members. Not they are saying it is around a dozen but that they weren't removed out of concern of radicalism but more routine concerns such as background criminal history or disturbing comments mentioned in front of others and they're playing it safe.

Some mention of conspiracy charges against some Oathkeeper members, too.

 

[danielravennest]

What, in the US, what legal -- as opposed to moral -- obligations does someone who attended the rally have?

Are they obliged to volunteer the information to the FBI that they were there, and to agree be interviewed if the FBI wishes, and to offer to allow agents to examine any phones or photographic equipment they had with them?

Or if the FBI turn up at their door, are they obliged to say anything other than, "I have nothing to say to you"?

Miranda warning (after the court case that established the requirement): You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

There is no obligation to say anything, ever, when questioned by law enforcement. Some industries, like banks, are obligated to report "suspicious" transactions.

If they show up at your door, the proper question is "do you have a warrant", if not you can close the door. If they come up to you somewhere else and ask you anything, the proper response if you don't want to talk to them is "Am I under arrest?", and if not "Am I free to go?" if they say you are not free to go, return to the first question. If you are under arrest, the only thing you have to say is "Lawyer".

You can choose to be cooperative if you and your legal counsel think it's a good idea, but the above is what you can do if you choose not to do anything for them.

 

[Soen Eber]

McConnell says Trump, others 'provoked' attack on US Capitol

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is explicitly pointing his finger at President Donald Trump for helping to spur the attack on the Capitol.

www.stltoday.com

So now we've established that McConnel knows the difference between good and evil.

 

[danielravennest]

Funny how he sheds his costume AFTER Trump is voted out. Now he wants to be "responsible statesman" even though he's anything but.

McConnell was in the Senate chamber with everyone else. It's amazing how threatening your life with a crazed rabble can change your opinion of someone.

I'm fairly sure McConnell always saw Trump as a useful idiot. But putting him in personal danger is a whole other matter. I expect McConnell now wants to make sure he never holds any office ever again, and that his cult gets scattered.

 

[detrius]

Funny how he sheds his costume AFTER Trump is voted out. Now he wants to be "responsible statesman" even though he's anything but.

It's a really bad sign for Trump because it indicates that the Senate Republicans are getting ready to bury him.

Of course they don't care about America or about Trump's crimes - they want to move on and rebrand their party. That's what they did after Bush II and Mitt Romney, it's what they always do.

That rebranding is of course going to be just for show, they'll still be the same old party. But they'll try to repeat Trump's 2016 campaign - and in order to do that, they'll have to replace Trump with a fresh face. That won't work if that piece of shit is still around, so they'll have to get rid of him.

Once Trump is silenced, they'll focus on building up a new character to appeal to the fascist voter block. Some recognizable political outsider with charisma, maybe an actor like Jon Voight, but ten years younger.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Miranda warning (after the court case that established the requirement): You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

There is no obligation to say anything, ever, when questioned by law enforcement. Some industries, like banks, are obligated to report "suspicious" transactions.

If they show up at your door, the proper question is "do you have a warrant", if not you can close the door. If they come up to you somewhere else and ask you anything, the proper response if you don't want to talk to them is "Am I under arrest?", and if not "Am I free to go?" if they say you are not free to go, return to the first question. If you are under arrest, the only thing you have to say is "Lawyer".

You can choose to be cooperative if you and your legal counsel think it's a good idea, but the above is what you can do if you choose not to do anything for them.

Just to be clear.

If the FBI ask me for some information about a third party that I am unwilling to provide, not because it potentially implicates me (in which case I am protected by the Fifth Amendment) but because I do not wish to answer for some other reason, even though I know, or at least suspect, that disclosing the information to them will materially assist them in their investigation, am I under any legal obligation to provide it unless ordered to by a court?

 

[Veritable Quandry]

You do not need to say anything in an interview. If they have reason to believe you have important information, you would be subpoenaed to testify to a grand jury, at which point you can only use the fifth amendment or try to invoke some kind of privileged communication (spouse, lawyer, priest, etc).

 

[Jopsy Pendragon]

There is no obligation to say anything, ever, when questioned by law enforcement.

Just make sure it's not a federal offense that you're being asked about because if you withhold information from a criminal investigation, it could be up to $250k and 3 years in prison.

18 U.S. Code § 4 - Misprision of felony

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Kara Spengler]

I don't quite understand.

What, in the US, what legal -- as opposed to moral -- obligations does someone who attended the rally have?

Are they obliged to volunteer the information to the FBI that they were there, and to agree be interviewed if the FBI wishes, and to offer to allow agents to examine any phones or photographic equipment they had with them?

Or if the FBI turn up at their door, are they obliged to say anything other than, "I have nothing to say to you"?

That may well arouse the agents' suspicions they have something to hide, and lead to their temporary arrest while they're held for further questioning, but if they insist on standing upon their constitutional right to silence, and their protections against unlawful search and seizure, what offence are they committing by so doing?

I know that, in the movies and tv shows, cops often threaten uncooperative witnesses with arrest for "obstruction" or similar offences, but I've always assumed that's a convenient fictional device rather than the way US law actually works in practice.

In the UK, and probably in the US as well, there are -- contentiously, in some cases -- specific circumstances in which people in particular roles have to report suspicious behaviour to the police (e.g. child welfare cases, or teachers suspecting their students are being radicalised by terrorist groups) but those are exceptions, made by specific laws creating particular obligations to disclose particular matters in particular circumstances.

Assuming there's no general rule, and I don't think there is, in the US that you must answer any questions an FBI officer wishes to ask (though it might be both appropriate and prudent so to do in any particular circumstances), when is a potential witness legally obliged to cooperate with them, or even to make himself known to them?

The police on the seen should have done it but unfortunately they did not. Now there is an fbi effort across the country to track them all down.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Just to be clear.

If the FBI ask me for some information about a third party that I am unwilling to provide, not because it potentially implicates me (in which case I am protected by the Fifth Amendment) but because I do not wish to answer for some other reason, even though I know, or at least suspect, that disclosing the information to them will materially assist them in their investigation, am I under any legal obligation to provide it unless ordered to by a court?

They will just get a warrant and you can not refuse that without consequences.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

They will just get a warrant and you can not refuse that without consequences.

Yes, but unless they can persuade a court that there is a good reason to issue the warrant (which has to be based in law rather than just the FBI would like to know something) then there's no obligation on me to say anything?

I ask because in the UK, various new offences have been introduced over the years, making it an offence to fail to answer questions when asked, or to fail to volunteer information when you know it relates to particular terrorist activities, or suspect it does, when it wouldn't normally wouldn't be an offence were the motives not related to political terrorism.

The default here, and I assume in the US too, is that you don't normally need to talk to the authorities if you don't want to, unless a court tells you there's a reason in law why you must, even though your unwillingness to cooperate may justifiably raise their suspicions (and may even given them reason to take you temporarily into custody).

 

[Soen Eber]

I want to say they can still book you as a material witness but IANAL and I'm realy fuzzy and unsure of this.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Evernote link because not accessible from some countries

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Evernote link because not accessible from some countries

Just kind of poking around a little bit more and found the below. Gee, I wonder what ever drew him to Trump.

Thomas Fee biography: 13 things about retired firefighter from Long Island, New York

Thomas J. Fee is a white man from New York, United States. Here are 13 more things about him: He lives in Freeport, Long Island, New York. (a) In January 1998, he joined the Fire Department of the…

conandaily.com

On November 22, 2004, he was suspended from his position as a volunteer firefighter for yelling out racial slurs on three or four occasions as an African-American cardiologist walked past the firehouse on Long Beach Road in Hempstead, Long Island.

 

[Free]

So now we've established that McConnel knows the difference between good and evil.

Most of us already knew he knew.

 

[Eunoli]

Most of us already knew he knew.

He knew. He just chooses evil most of the time.