Coup in the USA?

bubblesort

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Kloubachar was in Colbert just now, already talking about moving forward and not holding people accountable for what happened today. Colbert pushed back, so she kinda half heartedly said she will hold people accountable, but I'm not holding my breath.

I am so glad she lost the primary. How weak can you get?

McConnel will do as much damage as minority leader as he did as majority leader, because our party is run by cowards like Kloubachar.
 

Jolene Benoir

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He's definitely part of QAnon - in fact he's sort of a celebrity within QAnon and has been at every major real-world Q event.

As for the costume - well it's not supposed to be a buffalo or a yak costume. He's actually trying to look like a Hollywoodized version of a Viking.

Click on the photo so you can see it full size. You see up on his chest, that tattoo that looks like a bunch of linked triangles? Like this:

The tattoos beneath are symbols of Yggdrasil, the Norse world-tree:

These are all old symbols associated with the original Nordic mythology. In recent times, they've been appropriated by a new-age neopagan religion called "Asatru", which is sort of a reboot of Norse religion and borrows heavily from its symbolism.

Now, from what I've read, there are places in Europe where the practitioners of this Norse revival religion are for the most part innocuous. However, Asatru is extremely attractive to White Supremacists, who view it as a "true Aryan religion" and the proper white European alternative to Christianity, since Christianity worships a Jew. In the US specifically, Asatru followers are pretty much exclusively White Supremacists.

TL;DR - it's a Neo-Nazi cosplaying a Viking.

Just piping up that I'm currently playing a video game, Dragon's Quest XI, in which Yggdrasil features as part of the main plot. Tales of games feature it heavily as well, including those made back in the 90's/early 00's.

But, in general, these guys always like to think of themselves as some superior aryan stock. Trump echoed that kind of thinking when he came to Bemidji, MN and while speaking badly about Somali immigrants, told the people at his rally that they have good genes. He then talked about his racehorce theory.
 

Innula Zenovka

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(Let me add to Free's correction slightly.)

You mean being too gentle with the armed terrorists. And, very much agree to disagree.

The woman killed assaulting our capital building today was an Air Force veteran, who had therefore sworn an oath to support the Constitution whose provisions she was busy trying to undo. In my book, that makes her a traitor.

Besides, as Bronxie noted today, the reason you often don't see the police and right-wing extremists together is the same one why you don't see Superman and Clark Kent together.
I think we're approaching this with different assumptions about how the police should behave.

In the UK, police officers, like anyone else, are allowed to use force, including deadly force, if it is reasonable, given their understanding of the circumstances at the time, to defend their lives or the lives of others. If it's not reasonable, then the force used is unlawful, and that makes it a criminal offence -- assault, attempted murder or murder.

I understand that, at least in theory, the law is not dissimilar in much of the US, including Washington DC.

Since we know that only four people died during the course of today's shameful scenes, three as a result of medical emergencies, apparently, and it's not wholly clear who shot the Air Force veteran, it's hard to see whose lives -- their own, or those of members of the public -- the police failed to protect by not using force -- certainly the death toll would have been considerably higher if they had, and would probably have included both police officers and civilians other than protestors had the protestors returned fire (as it would have been very reasonable to fear they might).

The Air Force veteran might well have been a traitor (though I doubt her actions could be said to meet the legal definition of treason contained in the US constitution) and she almost certainly was committing several crimes by her presence, but what of it? The police would have been justified in using reasonable force to apprehend her, of course, but that's all. Her punishment, if any, should have been a matter for a court, not the police.

The problem is that US juries seem all too willing to accept police officers' accounts of how, in an unclear, highly charged, and fast moving situation, they feared the defendant might have been moving to draw a gun, even though he or she was unarmed and the gesture was completely innocent, and even in circumstances where a British jury might well have taken a different view of how reasonable the use of force was.

Tuesday's events demonstrated that, when they want to be, the police in the US are perfectly capable of managing a very dangerous and highly charged situation, where it was certainly reasonable to presume many of the suspects were armed, with minimal casualties -- things could have been far worse, and probably would have been had the police started shooting.

I want to hold them to that same standard when they deal with other members of the public, especially ones who are black.

I really think that Americans and Europeans (including Brits) have very different assumptions about how the police should behave, and when they are justified in using potentially deadly force, and this reflects itself in how they are trained and equipped which, in turn, is why so few people die each year at the hands of the police in most counties compared with the US.

To my mind, today helps demonstrate the advantages of the European approach to the use of force by the police, but I don't want to argue with you about it -- how the US is policed is none of my business, since I don't have to live there.

I'm just saying that the restraint show by the police today almost certainly resulted in fewer lives being lost than would have been had the Capitol Police decided to start using their firearms, and I find it difficult to criticise them for their restraint, as opposed to condemning for failing to show similar restraint in other situations when the suspects are black.

I want them to be made to show similar restraint in all circumstances, and trained so to do, not criticised for failing to use their firearms when they clearly didn't need to.

But let's agree to differ about this. You have to live with the US police and I don't.
 
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There should have been a much larger police presence in the first place that would have prevented anyone from getting into the building. Even here in Portland I have seen demonstrations where there were hundreds of police officers in full riot gear roaming around.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Well as we I guess all can agree upon US police officers get normally only very short training and usually are quite trigger happy, especially if you are a minority. They first shoot and then ask questions later, if you do survive.

2017 in the states 987 people have been shot deadly by police officers. That's a number for which other states need several decades to reach, or even a century or two.

And now this normally extremely aggressive police force becomes mellow and cuddly. So of course the police failed at large in handling this.

Some jokes are now making the round: "What the fuck? The USA are involved in a coup and its source for once was not the CIA?"

"Of course this coup had to fail, because they had no support from the US embassy."
 
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Arkady Arkright

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I don't know how widely this has been reported, from
NAACP leads anger at double standards of police as AmeriKKKa trends: ‘And you thought taking a knee was bad’
Representative Tim Ryan, who is in charge of funding the Capitol Police as the House Appropriations Legislative Branch subcommittee chair, vowed to investigate the law enforcement response to the rioters who seized the Capitol building. Mr Ryan said: “It appears to me on the basis of video evidence that the US Capitol Police have been infiltrated and compromised.”
 

Free

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What I do know, after spending hours sponging up Trumpist paranoia, conspiracism, and cultishness, is that this gathering was not merely an attempted coup but also a mass-delusion event, not something that can be explained adequately through the prism of politics. Its chaos was rooted in psychological and theological phenomena, intensified by eschatological anxiety. One man I interviewed this morning, a resident of Texas who said his name was Don Johnson (I did not trust this to be his name), told me that the country was coming apart, and that this dissolution presaged the End Times. “It’s all in the Bible,” he said. “Everything is predicted. Donald Trump is in the Bible. Get yourself ready.”

The conflation of Trump and Jesus was a common theme at the rally. “Give it up if you believe in Jesus!” a man yelled near me. People cheered. “Give it up if you believe in Donald Trump!” Louder cheers.
Mental health is now a threat to our society.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I posted the video in the first tweet earlier, but I'm posting the link again, along with pictures taken today of the damage done to the Capitol, because it gives such a powerful visual account of the events of the first part of the day:
 

danielravennest

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To put some perspective on where this nation's priorities should be, but aren't because our supposed leader abdicated his responsibilities:

Four people died during the Capitol invasion. The lady above was shot, and three others had "medical emergencies". Apparently walking in cold weather and climbing the Capitol steps was too much for them. Meanwhile, during the four hours it took to clear the Capitol grounds, 683 people died from COVID. President Biden has his priorities right. Fighting the pandemic is the top priority right now.

That's not to ignore all the other priorities, including prosecuting traitors to democracy. He's assembling an outstanding team, and they can work on more than one thing at a time.
 

danielravennest

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What are those brownshirts going to be charged with? Sedition? Interfering with an election? Breaking and entering?

I suppose each and every single one of them might end up facing a dozen really serious charges.
We can start with Title 18 Section 1361 of the US Code (the compilation of federal laws):

Whoever willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property of the United States, or of any department or agency thereof, or any property which has been or is being manufactured or constructed for the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or attempts to commit any of the foregoing offenses, shall be punished as follows:

If the damage or attempted damage to such property exceeds the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both; if the damage or attempted damage to such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.
I'm sure there are plenty of other offenses that apply. I think the ones about harming federal and elected officials are particularly severe.
 

Plurabelle Laszlo

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Though it could be argued that since, as Daniel suggested above, at the time they were unable to remove the intruders until reinforcements arrived, it was probably wisest to maintain as cooperative and non-confrontational an atmosphere as possible, while at the same time encouraging suspects to spread incriminating evidence all over social media.


I really think that Americans and Europeans (including Brits) have very different assumptions about how the police should behave, and when they are justified in using potentially deadly force, and this reflects itself in how they are trained and equipped which, in turn, is why so few people die each year at the hands of the police in most counties compared with the US.
....

I'm just saying that the restraint show by the police today almost certainly resulted in fewer lives being lost than would have been had the Capitol Police decided to start using their firearms, and I find it difficult to criticise them for their restraint, as opposed to condemning for failing to show similar restraint in other situations when the suspects are black.
I completely agree with you regarding the differences between the European and American approach about the use of deadly force; and that deescalation should be the standard procedure instead of calling for / justifying the use of firearms when not absolutely necessary. But I strongly disagree that those cops who were taking selfies and "maintained a cooperative and non-confrontational atmosphere" were deescalating the situation. They were clearly siding with the insurrectionists/criminals, encouraging and partly even enabling their actions. Deescalation is not fraternization.