Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died

Jolene Benoir

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As I understand it, they''re both defending the most vulnerable Republican seats in the Senate, upon which the Republican majority there depends.

That being the case, it seems to me they have every reason to concentrate on keeping their seats in November, regardless of what Trump wants, and McConnell has every reason to support them in this, since his priority is the senate majority too.
Yes, they are in desperate straits, but I definitely would not count on McConnell to back them up. He has the right-wing dream of a lifetime in his hands. He would toss them to the wind in a second. He wants to be in the history books. Nothing will dissuade that.
 

Zaida Gearbox

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The Constitution says, "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification for any public office or trust under the United States...." So, if they carefully examine her membership in this group they are grossly violating the constitution that every man jack one of them swore to uphold.

And is she really a member of this group or did she just attend a few times? I don't think it's clear. Wiki says she's a practicing Catholic, and the Catholic church doesn't usually allow dual memberships...
 

Jolene Benoir

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It doesn't even matter if they fail now. All of the crazies are going to come out in full force to vote for him because they understand, unlike some of my fellow erstwhile proclaimed liberals, just what the Supreme Court means.

Decades of change. Decades of control.

While some idiots couldn't grasp that in 2016, the Republicans grasped it. That's right, in this case, the Republicans were smarter.

It is fashionable to call them uneducated hicks. We dems are SO much more smart. Well, not all of us, apparently. They are united. We fight over vaccinations, emails, likeability and such.
 
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Kara Spengler

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Something that's been on my mind is how much worse my parents have gotten as they go into their 70's... it doesn't happen to everyone, but quite a few people become a lot more paranoid and xenophobic in their old age. I know of elderly people who somehow manage to completely avoid this transformation, but it happens and one day will happen to us Milenials... I just hope to be one of the people who avoid it.

Mind you, my father was never very progressive... he just got a lot worse. I think my mom still knows there is something wrong with Trump, but is very influenced by my dad. So maybe it's not that progressives suddenly get less progressive, but natural bigots just stop feeling the need to hide it and suppress it after a point.
I was talking to my mother in law earlier. She has made donations to political causes and such and was teasing me when I said I would vote for Biden over a green this year.

I know all about the electoral college and how it makes the most sense to vote third party in a dark blue or dark red state. However I decided only 2 people in the country could convince me to vote for Joe if they still wanted me to do so after my reminding them why I planned to vote Green.

One is my sister who is as progressive as I am. So not only does she know the moral qualms of green v dem she has done so in a battleground.

The other is my niece who will miss voting in this election by a couple of months. In addition to also being progressive she has been with my sister deciding between greens and dems. To say she is extremely involved with politics is an understatement, especially not being able to vote yet.
 

Jolene Benoir

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I was talking to my mother in law earlier. She has made donations to political causes and such and was teasing me when I said I would vote for Biden over a green this year.

I know all about the electoral college and how it makes the most sense to vote third party in a dark blue or dark red state. However I decided only 2 people in the country could convince me to vote for Joe if they still wanted me to do so after my reminding them why I planned to vote Green.

One is my sister who is as progressive as I am. So not only does she know the moral qualms of green v dem she has done so in a battleground.

The other is my niece who will miss voting in this election by a couple of months. In addition to also being progressive she has been with my sister deciding between greens and dems. To say she is extremely involved with politics is an understatement, especially not being able to vote yet.
Who wants to hear your excuses and justifications for not doing the right thing? Not me. You probably don't deserve this level of anger, but dammit, I am up to the top of my head with anger for people who blah blah about their favorite causes, excuses etc...for not fucking voting out our first dictator.

I don't have the patience for it anymore. In 2016 it was theoretical, though most of us could see it. It isn't fucking theoretical anymore.

Imma quote Maya Angelou: When a person show you who they are, believe them the first time..
 
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Innula Zenovka

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The Constitution says, "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification for any public office or trust under the United States...." So, if they carefully examine her membership in this group they are grossly violating the constitution that every man jack one of them swore to uphold.

And is she really a member of this group or did she just attend a few times? I don't think it's clear. Wiki says she's a practicing Catholic, and the Catholic church doesn't usually allow dual memberships...
I posted a link earlier in the thread to an article in the NYT that gives further details of the group to which she belongs

She certainly seems, if the NYT article is to be believed, in the past to have been less than wholly forthcoming about her membership of the group, and about an address she gave to a school they sponsor, and that's certainly a legitimate topic for the confirmation hearing to explore, or so it seems to me.

While I agree with you that a person's religious views should certainly not in themselves prevent that person sitting as a judge, I also think it's legitimate to explore the with the judge how she approaches cases where the teachings of her faith have a strong bearing on the case (as they might do when the question concerns abortion or the death penalty, for example).

I know what the answer should be, and I'm sure that's what she'll say, but I don't see what's wrong with asking her.
 

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As I have been maintaining most of the ways we get through the next few months lead to physical violence. I have already mentally written this year's elections off as the start of a new civil war. It does not really matter who wins because the country will have to go though it. There is a chance (albeit small) it gets delayed but it will just be worse when it arrives.
Sadly I consider you right on this one. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." That Jefferson Dude
 
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Kara Spengler

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Who wants to hear your excuses and justifications for not doing the right thing? Not me. You probably don't deserve this level of anger, but dammit, I am up to the top of my head with anger for people who blah blah about their favorite causes, excuses etc...for not fucking voting out our first dictator.

I don't have the patience for it anymore. In 2016 it was theoretical, though most of us could see it. It isn't fucking theoretical anymore.

Imma quote Maya Angelou: When a person show you who they are, believe them the first time..
Lol! Have you read the constitution lately? Pay special attention to the electoral college bit.

Ever since DC got to vote for president we have ALWAYS voted for a dem. In local races it is not uncommon for a republican to come in third. In 2016 donnie did not even get 4.9 percent of the popular vote in DC and has been a terrible neigbour to us ever since. Neither party wastes money campaigning or polling here but I expect him to do 2 to 3 pct in DC this time, which would mean 0 electoral votes. That is before factoring in that he is running against the vp of probably the most liked recent president here, who lives in the city (which is rare).

BTW, what the fuck is your problem anyway? I said I was voting for your corporate shill.
 

Jolene Benoir

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Lol! Have you read the constitution lately? Pay special attention to the electoral college bit.

Ever since DC got to vote for president we have ALWAYS voted for a dem. In local races it is not uncommon for a republican to come in third. In 2016 donnie did not even get 4.9 percent of the popular vote in DC and has been a terrible neigbour to us ever since. Neither party wastes money campaigning or polling here but I expect him to do 2 to 3 pct in DC this time, which would mean 0 electoral votes. That is before factoring in that he is running against the vp of probably the most liked recent president here, who lives in the city (which is rare).

BTW, what the fuck is your problem anyway? I said I was voting for your corporate shill.
My apologies. I was reading your post and I expected the usual excuses about why you are voting Green because you are in DC, blah, blah, blah.

I was wrong in this case. In any event,, kudos to you for being willing to vote for the "corporate shill" to overcome dictatorship.

Corporate shill, lol. Couldn't keep yourself from that, eh?
 

Fionalein

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I posted a link earlier in the thread to an article in the NYT that gives further details of the group to which she belongs

She certainly seems, if the NYT article is to be believed, in the past to have been less than wholly forthcoming about her membership of the group, and about an address she gave to a school they sponsor, and that's certainly a legitimate topic for the confirmation hearing to explore, or so it seems to me.

While I agree with you that a person's religious views should certainly not in themselves prevent that person sitting as a judge, I also think it's legitimate to explore the with the judge how she approaches cases where the teachings of her faith have a strong bearing on the case (as they might do when the question concerns abortion or the death penalty, for example).

I know what the answer should be, and I'm sure that's what she'll say, but I don't see what's wrong with asking her.
She swore an oath of livelong loyalty to them - she cannot be loyal to the constitution now. If her old oath is still good she cannot vow a second one on the constitution without lying. If she already broke her oath prior to the inauguration as judge she is an oathbreaker and cannot be trusted.

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" she clearly either already sinned on that one or intends to - no Christian in the right mind could want her. Remind the evangelicals that God will hate them if they embrace her because she is convenient. In the war for the human soul there is no grey zone - there is just innocence and taint. It's a war of absolutes!
 
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Kara Spengler

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Sadly I consider you right on this one. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." That Jefferson Dude
Yeah, it is not something I want to be right about but there is no getting around the projections. I am also keeping an eye on the fact that the more ground the dems gave to delay it the reps took just as fast so at some point there will be a break. It is just a matter of the details of that break. All this was before RBG died and the reps said they would (of course) go back on the 'rule' they set 4 years ago. Between that, the election, donnie doing everything to cheat and call foul, foreign interference, covid 19, them rushing a 'vaccine' out next month .... well, it will be a wild ride.
 

Jolene Benoir

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She swore an oath of livelong loyalty to them - she cannot be loyal to the constitution now. If her old oath is still good she cannot vow a second one on thee constitution without lying. If she already broke her oath prior to the inauguration as judge she is an oathbreaker and cannot be trusted.

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" she clearly either alrerady sinned on that one or intends to - no Christian in the right mind could want her. Remind the evangelicals that God will hate them if they embrae her because she is convenient. In the war for tze humanm soul thgere is no grey zone - there is just innocence and taint. It's a war of absolutes!
None of that matters. If the last number of years has shown us anything it is that they will do anything, will overlook anything, will violate their vows, etc...

It's about power. No oaths are sacred.
 

Kara Spengler

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My apologies. I was reading your post and I expected the usual excuses about why you are voting Green because you are in DC, blah, blah, blah.

I was wrong in this case. In any event,, kudos to you for being willing to vote for the "corporate shill" to overcome dictatorship.

Corporate shill, lol. Couldn't keep yourself from that, eh?
Of course I will get that in. I may vote for him against all logic because I am keeping a promise to myself to follow their decisions on my vote but nobody said I have to like him.
 

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She swore an oath of livelong loyalty to them - she cannot be loyal to the constitution now. If her old oath is still good she cannot vow a second one on thee constitution without lying. If she already broke her oath prior to the inauguration as judge she is an oathbreaker and cannot be trusted.

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" she clearly either alrerady sinned on that one or intends to - no Christian in the right mind could want her. Remind the evangelicals that God will hate them if they embrae her because she is convenient. In the war for tze humanm soul thgere is no grey zone - there is just innocence and taint. It's a war of absolutes!
I would need to know the terms of the oath before commenting.

You're making a very serious allegation against her, since according to your argument, she can't have meant it when she swore her judicial oath to judge cases impartially, and I think that kind of allegation requires strong evidence to support it.

If any such evidence exists, then doubtless it will surface in the confirmation hearings.
 

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I would need to know the terms of the oath before commenting.
wikipedia to the rescue
people of praise covenant said:
Therefore, we covenant ourselves to live our lives together in Christ, our Lord, by the power of his spirit. We agree to be a basic Christian community, to find within our fellowship the essential core of our life in the spirit, in worship and the sacraments, spiritual and moral guidance, service and apostolic activity. We accept the order of this community, which the Lord is establishing with all the ministry gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially with the foundational ministry gifts of apostles, pastors, prophets, teachers and evangelists. We agree to obey the direction of the Holy Spirit manifested in and through these ministries in full harmony with the Church. We recognize in the covenant a unique relationship one to another and between the individual and the community. We accept the responsibility for mutual care, concern, and ministry among ourselves. We will serve one another and the community as a whole in all needs: spiritual, material, financial. We agree that the weekly meeting of the community is primary among our commitments, and that we will not be absent except for a serious reason.
 

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If any such evidence exists, then doubtless it will surface in the confirmation hearings.
If there even are any hearings. The confirmation hearing for Kavanaugh was pretty much a sham - the Republicans were going to confirm him regardless of what came out in the hearings. There's no reason to believe this next one will be at all objective.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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So you are enroling cultists for the supreme court now?
Yeah, that's a complicated issue. I don't know if you have anything similar to parachurches in Europe, but in America they are a big thing, kinda. Not big enough to make the nightly news, but it's big in conservative circles.

Quick history lesson:

The religious right was not always what they are today. Most denominations hated each other, and were too paranoid to work together. Most of them were even pro-life. When the first amendment was written, it was mostly to prevent all the denominations from waging holy wars over control of government. This state persisted, until the late 1970s. After Watergate, the conservatives were in crisis for most of the 1970s, until Jerry Fallwell put the moral majority together, and Regan rose to power on their backs. Falwell did for the Republicans what the Clintons did for the democratic party in 92, with their 'third way' strategy (which is killing us in 2020, but that's a diatribe for a different time).

Most denominations made a few concessions here and there to make the moral majority work. One of the big concessions was when they agreed to the Roman Catholic church's demand for a anti-abortion plank in their platform. Before this, the protestants and rednecks weren't all anti-abortion.

Since then, the moral majority declined, as America became more secular, and the Republicans learned from people like Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich that they can win political power through pure obstructionism easier than they can by playing games with the preachers. Trump seems to have completed this lesson for them. Now they know they can win more power by agressively fighting than they can with preachers. The democratic party leadership doesn't seem to comprehend this.

So the preachers want their 1980s power back, but how? Nobody is going to church any more. The only Catholics left are people who don't care about child abuse. Churches are closing down all over the place. Gay marriage is legal, marijuana is legal, most people don't support Netenyahu in Israel. So they are now at a point where they need to reconsolidate. How do they do that?

They form little prayer groups that kind of take a little from other religious denominations and mash them up. This isn't actually a new thing. Messianic jews have been around since forever. Over the past decade or so, though, they have been doing this a lot more. The groups are now called parachurches. They are like little cults that exist in the gray areas between denominations.

So you have, say an anglican who likes anglicanism, but wants the services to have the energy of a southern black baptist church? Done.
A Catholic who misses the time before Vatican II, and wants there to be more mysticism in Catholicism, in the form of charismatic glossolalia? Done.
A methodist who wants a bit of those Catholic theatrics in their rituals? Done.

I know this is a bit out of left field, but if you think about it the way neo-pagans think about their traditions, it makes perfect sense. Most neo-pagans I know kind of pick and choose between a little bit of wicca, a little bit of egyptian or norse mythology, a sprinkle of transhumanism, or maybe some satanism... they mash up beliefs until they get something that just fits them. This is kind of like that, but not as individualized. Christian parachurches are groups that take a little bit of various christian traditions and stick them together to form their own little cabals, which grow. Some grow a lot. There are many nation-wide parachurches operating in America right now.

At first, this kind of intermingling was not accepted by clergy at all. I have some family members who have been involved with some of these groups for years, and they were forced to change their meeting places from church to church for a while, when priests kicked them out. They were forced to meet in each other's homes for a while. After a few years, though, the churches came to see it as an ecumenical movement. The charasmatics seem to like this most of all, because most of these groups just stuck speaking in tongues into their current beliefs, which drove more people to convert to charasmatic churches when they left the Catholic church over things like child abuse.

I have heard that some of these parachurch groups are even incorporating non-christian religions into their parachurches. I hear falun gong has a parachurch or two, which is really weird to me, because they are basically Chinese scientology. They probably work with the christians because they are Trump's largest backers, because they believe he's bringing about the end of the world... that's another rant for another time.

For what it's worth, from my personal experience with parachurch people, parachurches are usually a lot more cultish than proper denominations.

Anyway... the group that Amy Barrett is in is one of these parachurches, called People of Praise. They seem to operate in cult-like ways, demanding their members take oaths, and then take a partner to keep them on the straight and narrow, like alcoholics anonymous, or something. Having a partner like that is something Catholic monks and clergy have always done in seminaries, so it's not new, but in modern times, it's a bit creepy.

The reason why people are saying Barrett is the front runner to replace RBG right now is because when Trump nominated Kavenaugh, a reporter asked him why he didn't pick Barrett. His response was that he's saving Barrett to replace RBG. That could be him talking out his ass like he always does, or maybe he was serious. Nobody knows.

We will probably find out one way or the other tomorrow.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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And it seems perfectly reasonable for the Democrats to raise with her the question of how this vow might conflict with her judicial oath (which I can see how, on one construction, it could, but I'd need to explore whether that construction is the right one) and, if it does, how she has resolved in the past or how she would deal with it in the future.

But it certainly doesn't seem to me necessarily inconsistent with her judicial duties and I expect she would say that, if she found herself in circumstances where it did, she would, of course, recuse herself from hearing the case, as judges regularly do when they think it's necessary or appropriate.

If there even are any hearings. The confirmation hearing for Kavanaugh was pretty much a sham - the Republicans were going to confirm him regardless of what came out in the hearings. There's no reason to believe this next one will be at all objective.
The Democrats get to ask questions, though, don't they? I'm sure I remember Kamala Harris making Kavanagh cry (such a nasty woman). Presumably, if there is some evidence she's not in the past been impartial, that would be their opportunity to introduce it and question her about it.
 

Jolene Benoir

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And it seems perfectly reasonable for the Democrats to raise with her the question of how this vow might conflict with her judicial oath (which I can see how, on one construction, it could, but I'd need to explore whether that construction is the right one) and, if it does, how she has resolved in the past or how she would deal with it in the future.

But it certainly doesn't seem to me necessarily inconsistent with her judicial duties and I expect she would say that, if she found herself in circumstances where it did, she would, of course, recuse herself from hearing the case, as judges regularly do when they think it's necessary or appropriate.


The Democrats get to ask questions, though, don't they? I'm sure I remember Kamala Harris making Kavanagh cry (such a nasty woman). Presumably, if there is some evidence she's not in the past been impartial, that would be their opportunity to introduce it and question her about it.
Except they lie now, under oath. I cannot believe how common this has become.

The key would be, as you said, to prove that at some point in the past, she deviated from the law and allowed her personal positions to overrule the law. That is a hard proposition to prove.
 
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