The US-Iran War Has Begun

Cristiano

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I dunno. I thought he made a good point about inertia -- that is, politicians generally are slow to abandon positions that have served them well in the past. And, when most of the current Democratic leadership got started, support for AIPAC was pretty uncontentious and bi-partisan.
Much like someone using the word "woke" as a pejorative instantly disqualifies any serious discussion of a topic, raising the specter of anti-semitism because of legitimate criticism of what the Israeli government and AIPAC by extension are doing is lazy as hell. It is not nearly as effective as it once was to stifle criticism.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Much like someone using the word "woke" as a pejorative instantly disqualifies any serious discussion of a topic, raising the specter of anti-semitism because of legitimate criticism of what the Israeli government and AIPAC by extension are doing is lazy as hell. It is not nearly as effective as it once was to stifle criticism.
My problem with this is that we normally listen when Black people complain something is racist, and treat with suspicion those who dismiss what they have to say as "playing the racism card." I don't see why some people on the left tend to apply a double standard when the complaint is about antisemitism.

Yes, some accusations of antisemitism are clearly made in bad faith and used as excuses to shut down justified criticism of the Israeli government and military. This does not, however, mean that all such accusations are made in bad faith.

The syllogism, "Not all criticisms of Israel are antisemitic. I am a critic of Israel. Therefore I cannot be an antisemite." is not validly constructed.
 
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Beebo Brink

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Much like someone using the word "woke" as a pejorative instantly disqualifies any serious discussion of a topic, raising the specter of anti-semitism because of legitimate criticism of what the Israeli government and AIPAC by extension are doing is lazy as hell. It is not nearly as effective as it once was to stifle criticism.
Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell had an interesting discussion on The Bulwark podcast a few days ago, about the sensitivity of criticizing Netanyahu and Israel. She and Tim both talked about how reflexively they check themselves in discussions about Israel because of their concern for not sounding antisemitic and their awareness of the strong emotions invoked by Israel's struggle to survive in the Middle East. It was an internal concern as much as one about their audience reaction; it was driven by their knowledge of the history of Israel since the end of WWII, and their own emotional affinity for Israel based on shared values (such as LGBTQ support and women's rights).

Longwell, who conducts constant polling of Republican voters, noted that many people in younger generations don't share that same perspective. They will remark with puzzlement "Why can't I say that?" concerning critiques of Israel. Some of them do parrot the antisemitism of Far Right propaganda, but others are asking hard questions that older generations may not be comfortable voicing.
 

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My problem with this is that we normally listen when Black people complain something is racist, and treat with suspicion those who dismiss what they have to say as "playing the racism card." I don't see why some people on the left tend to apply a double standard when the complaint is about antisemitism.

Yes, some accusations of antisemitism are clearly made in bad faith and used as excuses to shut down justified criticism of the Israeli government and military. This does not, however, mean that all such accusations are made in bad faith.

The syllogism, "Not all criticisms of Israel are antisemitic. I am a critic of Israel. Therefore I cannot be an antisemite." is not validly constructed.
Agreed. In general I take people seriously when they say they are the victims of bigotry, but not governments or big powerful organizations. I've previously voiced strong distaste for "protests" that harassed private citizens who happened to be Jewish, but also think Netanyahu can go fuck himself. I know this is still a bit of an oversimplification but I think it mostly works. I don't think it's actually that hard to separate attacks on a government versus a people, but I know many struggle with this.

Some general rules is that it shouldn't be that hard to criticize Israel's government without using terminology that is general of all Jewish people.
 

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Let's put it that way: concerns that Israel is abusing antisemitism as a shield and thought-terminating cliché are nothing new. Far from it.

There's even a whole book about it named "THe Holocaust Industry", published in 2000 (!) and written by the American Jew Norman G. Finkelstein. Back then it got heavy criticism, and mixed reviews.
 

Cristiano

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My problem with this is that we normally listen when Black people complain something is racist, and treat with suspicion those who dismiss what they have to say as "playing the racism card." I don't see why some people on the left tend to apply a double standard when the complaint is about antisemitism.

Yes, some accusations of antisemitism are clearly made in bad faith and used as excuses to shut down justified criticism of the Israeli government and military. This does not, however, mean that all such accusations are made in bad faith.

The syllogism, "Not all criticisms of Israel are antisemitic. I am a critic of Israel. Therefore I cannot be an antisemite." is not validly constructed.
Does anti-semitism exist? Absolutely and should be called out. The difference in your analogy about black people is that there is not a separate nation and government tied to their expressing that something is racist. The American right has gone pretty far into pressing the notion that any criticism of Israel or not wanting American funds to go to Israel is antisemitism. That is what I am pushing back against. Why the fuck are we funding a better way of life in Israel than we are for American citizens? That is not antisemitism. Not wanting to help Netanyahu slaughter his way through the Middle East is not antisemitism.

I pointed out the comment in the article you shared specifically because it was intellectually dishonest to equate the comments about American politicians being beholden to AIPAC with tropes about rich Jews.
 

Cristiano

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Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell had an interesting discussion on The Bulwark podcast a few days ago, about the sensitivity of criticizing Netanyahu and Israel. She and Tim both talked about how reflexively they check themselves in discussions about Israel because of their concern for not sounding antisemitic and their awareness of the strong emotions invoked by Israel's struggle to survive in the Middle East. It was an internal concern as much as one about their audience reaction; it was driven by their knowledge of the history of Israel since the end of WWII, and their own emotional affinity for Israel based on shared values (such as LGBTQ support and women's rights).

Longwell, who conducts constant polling of Republican voters, noted that many people in younger generations don't share that same perspective. They will remark with puzzlement "Why can't I say that?" concerning critiques of Israel. Some of them do parrot the antisemitism of Far Right propaganda, but others are asking hard questions that older generations may not be comfortable voicing.
Hence the reason Netanyahu has talked openly about needing to control the narrative on social media, especially TikTok, which is now conveniently owned by Larry Ellison. The Ellisons have a frightening amount of media control now, and have been pushing a heavily pro Israel narrative on cue.

 

Innula Zenovka

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Does anti-semitism exist? Absolutely and should be called out. The difference in your analogy about black people is that there is not a separate nation and government tied to their expressing that something is racist. The American right has gone pretty far into pressing the notion that any criticism of Israel or not wanting American funds to go to Israel is antisemitism. That is what I am pushing back against. Why the fuck are we funding a better way of life in Israel than we are for American citizens? That is not antisemitism. Not wanting to help Netanyahu slaughter his way through the Middle East is not antisemitism.

I pointed out the comment in the article you shared specifically because it was intellectually dishonest to equate the comments about American politicians being beholden to AIPAC with tropes about rich Jews.
I dunno. I'm old enough to remember when Idi Amin ran Uganda. He complained that British criticism of his regime was racist and colonialist, as some of it certainly was. Didn't alter the fact that he was a murderous, megalomaniac tyrant but equally some of it was certainly very racist.

Similarly, Narendra Modi and his Hindu-nationalist goons frequently try to deflect criticism of the BJP's treatment of Muslims as colonialist. That's clearly in bad faith much of the time, but some of it certainly does come across as suggesting that the Indians can't really govern themselves properly and were much better off when the British were there to keep order and mediate between the two religions.

You ask,

Why the fuck are we funding a better way of life in Israel than we are for American citizens? That is not antisemitism. Not wanting to help Netanyahu slaughter his way through the Middle East is not antisemitism.
I would suggest that the reason is that the US sees the Middle East and Iran as major areas of geopolitical interest, because of their oil and gas resources and their position on a major supply route (the Suez canal) and, during the cold war, on the USSR's southern border. Furthermore, Trump and his family have major business interests in both the area and in the former Soviet Central Asian republics, to whom Iran and its proxies are a major potential threat.

Israel has long been seen by the US as a very important military proxy in the region, just as Saddam Hussein's Iraq once was, as was the Shah's Iran, which is why it enjoys so much support from the US, as once did both Iran and Iraq. The US supports them, that is, because the US sees them as useful agents who can be used to benefit the US.

The question isn't why does the US fund a better way of life in Israel than for US citizens but why doesn't the US use the economic benefits its foreign policy is intended to support in a way that benefits US citizens as a whole rather than US big business and the very rich.
 

Innula Zenovka

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And returning to the war, it seems that Iran is now embarking on the FO response to the US and Israel's FA.

Iran escalates attacks on infrastructure and transport networks across the Gulf

Iran dramatically escalated its strategy of striking civilian infrastructure and transport networks across the Gulf on Wednesday, attacking commercial ships and targeting Dubai’s international airport as US and Israeli warplanes launched new waves of strikes on the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials struck a defiant tone, warning of a long “war of attrition” that would threaten global economic chaos as energy supplies from the region were throttled.

In what appears to be a growing stalemate in the 12-day conflict, violence continued across a swath of the Middle East, with Israeli strikes on what it says are Hezbollah targets in Lebanon and barrages of Iranian missiles and Hezbollah rockets targeting Israel.
It's particularly significant, I think, that even though the initial US and Israeli attacks killed most of Iran's senior political and military leaders, their contingency plan for such an attack seems to be operating pretty much autonomously.
 

Cristiano

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Hence the reason Netanyahu has talked openly about needing to control the narrative on social media, especially TikTok, which is now conveniently owned by Larry Ellison. The Ellisons have a frightening amount of media control now, and have been pushing a heavily pro Israel narrative on cue.

Oh also, to add to this, Elon owns X and Zuckerberg owns Facebook, Instagram, Threads and Whatsapp. So the entire social media and entertainment ecosystems are in the hands of the Ellisons, Elon and the creep from Facebook.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Three brothers have been arrested after a bomb went off at the US embassy in Norway.

Investigators have branded the attack an act of terrorism.

The suspects, all in their twenties, are Norwegian citizens with a family background from Iraq, authorities have said.
 
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No wonder Trump is so angry about Iran laying minds in the Strait of Hormuz.

As President Donald Trump warns Iran against using mines to threaten oil tankers in the Strait of Hormuz, the U.S. Navy’s purpose-built minesweepers are sitting stateside thousands of miles away with no plans to put them to use while the war rages on.
 

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This was reported on the 10th. Any word about if conditions have changed? ( :hellokitty:)

US Navy tells shipping industry Hormuz escorts not possible for now
The U.S. Navy has refused near-daily requests from the shipping industry for military escorts through the Strait of Hormuz since the start of the war on Iran, saying the risk of attacks is too high for now, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The ‌Navy's assessments spell continued disruption to Middle East oil exports and reflect a divergence from President Donald Trump’s statements that the U.S. is prepared to provide naval escorts whenever needed to restart regular shipments along the key waterway.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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The American right has gone pretty far into pressing the notion that any criticism of Israel or not wanting American funds to go to Israel is antisemitism. That is what I am pushing back against. Why the fuck are we funding a better way of life in Israel than we are for American citizens? That is not antisemitism. Not wanting to help Netanyahu slaughter his way through the Middle East is not antisemitism.
George F. Kennnan gave the answer in PPS23 in 1948:

...we have about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.

And that's part of the answer: because Israel is a key ally of America in Middle East, the other one is KSA.

Or let's take Jason Hickel, replace Biden with Trump. The train of thought is still valid: AIPAC's influence is overrated, in reality it is about geopolitical power and keeping the lifestyle we are used to.

Also Israel and America have much in common: both relied heavily on immigration, religion played an important role (god's own country), both fought against a colonial power, both battled the domestic population, both have a strong funding narrative and are democracies with pluralistic society and law. Israel is not only an ally to America, it's a proxy.

And with Operation Diamond and later HAVE DOUGHNUT Israel gave America access to a MIG21, which is something America tried multiple times on its own but failed. This really deepened the bond. Also most of the time Israel and America have the same goals.

 
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Reuters: Exclusive: US intelligence says Iran government is not at risk of collapse, say sources

NEW YORK/WASHINGTON, March 11 (Reuters) - U.S. intelligence indicates that Iran's leadership is still largely intact and is not at risk of collapse any time soon after nearly two weeks of relentless U.S. and Israeli bombardment, according to three sources familiar with the matter.
A "multitude" of intelligence reports provide "consistent analysis that the regime is not in danger" of collapse and "retains control of the Iranian public," ‌said one of the sources, all of whom were granted anonymity to discuss U.S. intelligence findings.