The Trump Presidency, Season 2

Veritable Quandry

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They are stretching the meaning of "invasion" to a point that courts should put a stop to. But because of the partisan elements of judicial appointments in the US there is a realistic concern that they will not.
 

Innula Zenovka

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They are stretching the meaning of "invasion" to a point that courts should put a stop to. But because of the partisan elements of judicial appointments in the US there is a realistic concern that they will not.
Though the Supreme Court, with the exception of justices Thomas and Alito, still seem prepared to show some independence, and habeas corpus is a pretty big deal for most judges, I'd have thought.

Besides, am I not correct in thinking that it's up to Congress to suspend habeas corpus? It's not something Trump can do simply by waving his magic Sharpie about.
 

Veritable Quandry

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While the power to suspend habeas corpus is in Section I which deals with powers of Congress, it is written in passive voice so it has been interpreted both ways. Lincoln suspended it but then went to Congress after he recieved pushback. It is more ambiguous than birthright citizenship, and Trump could tie it up in court.
 
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Katheryne Helendale

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Besides, am I not correct in thinking that it's up to Congress to suspend habeas corpus? It's not something Trump can do simply by waving his magic Sharpie about.
There are a lot of things Trump is doing via executive order that actually require an act of Congress. But so far, nobody, not even Congress, seems inclined to stop his obvious power grabs.
 

Innula Zenovka

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While the power to suspend habeas corpus is in Section I which deals with powers of Congress, it is written in passive voice so it has been interpreted both ways. Lincoln suspended it but then went to Congress after he recieved pushback. It is more ambiguous than birthright citizenship, and Trump could tie it up in court.
This seems to make a pretty powerful case that only Congress has the power to suspend habeas corpus


In the UK there's no question about it -- suspending habeas corpus definitely requires primary legislation, and even them detainees would still be protected by the Human Rights Act. The whole point of habeas corpus, after all, is to protect people from arbitrary detention by the executive.
 

Veritable Quandry

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Absolutely. It is clear that it can only be done in extraordinary circumstances: the word "invasion" has only really suited the War of 1812 and the American Civil War, aside form a few brief periods of cross-border hostilities with Mexican revolutionaries in the early 20th Century. And maybe the Pig War.

It is generally understood to be a power of Congress as it is part of Article I, not Article II. However, if a case involving deportations without due process were to arise in West Texas, putting the jurisdiction in Amarillo and then to the 5th Circuit, they could ship out a lot of people before the courts would have time to intervene. There is very little case law because the power has been used so rarely.
 

Beebo Brink

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This seems to make a pretty powerful case that only Congress has the power to suspend habeas corpus
Unfortunately, our Republican dominated Congress is showing little interest in protecting their powers and providing any check against the Executive branch. Official authority is worthless if no one effectively enforces it.
 

Ellie

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Old but still good.

Like so many bullies, Trump has skin of gossamer. He thinks nothing of saying the most hurtful thing about someone else, but when he hears a whisper that runs counter to his own vainglorious self-image, he coils like a caged ferret. Just to drive him a little bit crazy, I took to referring to him as a “short-fingered vulgarian” in the pages of Spy magazine. That was more than a quarter of a century ago. To this day, I receive the occasional envelope from Trump. There is always a photo of him—generally a tear sheet from a magazine. On all of them he has circled his hand in gold Sharpie in a valiant effort to highlight the length of his fingers. I almost feel sorry for the poor fellow because, to me, the fingers still look abnormally stubby.
Steel Traps and Short Fingers

Bonus track

 

Innula Zenovka

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The full article

 

GoblinCampFollower

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The full article

I don't believe we are past the point of no return YET, but I do see the risk as high. I think it's important to remain and offer what resistance we can for at least a bit longer. Most of what gives me hope is Trump's bumbling incompetence and likely failing health that they are trying to keep secret. I think if something happens to him, there would be a LOT of Republican infighting about who gets to be the successor.
 
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Noodles

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The full article

It may be different for different people, and month later now, but around the time of the inauguration I had a friend try to flee to Canada and they basically denied her because they didn't think there was an actual threat.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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It may be different for different people, and month later now, but around the time of the inauguration I had a friend try to flee to Canada and they basically denied her because they didn't think there was an actual threat.
Yeah.... fleeing the country is MUCH easier said than done for many reasons. And the USA isn't to the point where we're going to be offered refugee status. So usually you have to go through the SLOW naturalization processes that often expect a lot of education and money out of you.
 

Beebo Brink

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I don't believe we are past the point of no return YET, but I do see the risk as high. I think it's important to remain and offer what resistance we can for at least a bit longer.
For some people, like the transgendered, it's time to gtfo of this country if they can. Their numbers are too small to make any difference in (what little) resistance there is, and the cost of mistiming is too high to wait until we are certifiably past the point of no return, especially given the speed of the Trump Administration is dismantling our democratic protections. I'm not sure what it would take for you to acknowledge "we're there now", but for me it was the dissolution of government agencies without Congressional pushback, it was the gutting of military leadership without pushback, it was the removal of Kilmar Abrego Garcia (and others around that time) without pushback. Hand-wringing and stern words are NOT pushback. Angry judges aren't pushback.

The only genuine pushback would have been impeachment the FIRST TIME Trump was in office. Electing him a second time was a foreshadowing that it's all over.

I'm still going out every few weeks to join the ranks of the local protests. I'll keep doing that until the police and/or military show up, and then -- to be perfectly honest -- I'm going home and keeping my head down.

Most of what gives me hope is Trump's bumbling incompetence and likely failing health that they are trying to keep secret. I think if something happens to him, there would be a LOT of Republican infighting about who gets to be the successor.
Vought and Steven Miller are driving the so-called Trump Agenda, as is the Heritage Foundation. No matter what faction wins, that agenda isn't going anyplace.
 

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For some people, like the transgendered, it's time to gtfo of this country if they can. Their numbers are too small to make any difference in (what little) resistance there is,
Very fair point.

...and the cost of mistiming is too high to wait until we are certifiably past the point of no return, especially given the speed of the Trump Administration is dismantling our democratic protections. I'm not sure what it would take for you to acknowledge "we're there now", but for me it was the dissolution of government agencies without Congressional pushback, it was the gutting of military leadership without pushback, it was the removal of Kilmar Abrego Garcia (and others around that time) without pushback. Hand-wringing and stern words are NOT pushback. Angry judges aren't pushback.

The only genuine pushback would have been impeachment the FIRST TIME Trump was in office. Electing him a second time was a foreshadowing that it's all over.

I'm still going out every few weeks to join the ranks of the local protests. I'll keep doing that until the police and/or military show up, and then -- to be perfectly honest -- I'm going home and keeping my head down.


Vought and Steven Miller are driving the so-called Trump Agenda, as is the Heritage Foundation. No matter what faction wins, that agenda isn't going anyplace.
I agree with everything you said. I do however think it's worth pointing out that Steven Miller doesn't have anywhere near the "cult" charisma that Trump does. Without Trump's backing, Miller would be about as electable as a mushroom growing on a turd. I agree the agenda won't just evaporate, but right now the biggest advantage the right has over the left is that they are all unified behind Trump, where as the left is so fragmented.

Don't get me wrong, I have said before on this forum a few times that I do think a fascist take over is likely to happen eventually, but I'm still trying to maintain some hope of DELAYING it a bit. I think you'll ultimately be right, but my hope is we can stall a bit longer.
 

Innula Zenovka

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It may be different for different people, and month later now, but around the time of the inauguration I had a friend try to flee to Canada and they basically denied her because they didn't think there was an actual threat.
As far as I know, Canada recognises gender identity as a protected ground for asylum, which suggests a tribunal found, as a matter of fact, that your friend didn't have a well-founded fear of persecution on the grounds of their gender identity at the time they made the application.

That's probably not unreasonable if the application was, as you say, made at the time of the inauguration, since at the time any were hypothetical rather than actual, since Trump hadn't then had the opportunity to realise any threats he'd made on the campaign trail. How far did your friend get in the application process, do you know? Did they appeal the refusal?

Obviously I'm not familiar with your friend's circumstances, and I don't know anything about Canadian immigration law, but how difficult is it for a US citizen to live and work in Canada without applying for asylum?
 

Innula Zenovka

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Most of what gives me hope is Trump's bumbling incompetence and likely failing health that they are trying to keep secret. I think if something happens to him, there would be a LOT of Republican infighting about who gets to be the successor.
In the event of Trump's death or incapacity wouldn't his Vice President, JD Vance, automatically succeed him? Other candidates might then contend for the Republican nomination in the 2028 presidential election, but I think until there's no question about who would be president, is there?
 

GoblinCampFollower

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In the event of Trump's death or incapacity wouldn't his Vice President, JD Vance, automatically succeed him?
yes... of course... but once again, Vance doesn't have the same cult Charisma that Trump does. Not sure he could get away with 10% of what Trump does. But I also won't claim to know exactly what Vance would do... I don't think he's as overtly fascist as someone like Miller, but certainly don't trust Vance's motives either.