The Russia-Ukraine War has begun

Khamon

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I don't think Putin wants a way out at the moment. He hasn't achieved his goals yet.
We don't know that because we still, still, have no idea what his goals are.

Gulevich didn't resign in protest so much as he offered his resignation for failure to deploy troops as ordered because *they* refused to comply. That resignation was duly accepted and he's now officially branded as a traitor. I always suspected that Putin's hit men largely ran the clean-up campaign after the lying murdering scum Lukashenko was not re-elected in 2020. It's hard to imagine so many Belarusians participating in the capture, torture, and murder of thousands of their fellow countryfolk. Now we know that to be true because those same Belarusian soldiers are refusing to capture, torture, and murder, Ukranians to satisfy the whims of a random dictator. Perhaps one good result of this fiasco will be the end of the lying murdering scum Lukashenko's lif career.
 

bubblesort

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We don't know that because we still, still, have no idea what his goals are.

Gulevich didn't resign in protest so much as he offered his resignation for failure to deploy troops as ordered because *they* refused to comply. That resignation was duly accepted and he's now officially branded as a traitor. I always suspected that Putin's hit men largely ran the clean-up campaign after the lying murdering scum Lukashenko was not re-elected in 2020. It's hard to imagine so many Belarusians participating in the capture, torture, and murder of thousands of their fellow countryfolk. Now we know that to be true because those same Belarusian soldiers are refusing to capture, torture, and murder, Ukranians to satisfy the whims of a random dictator. Perhaps one good result of this fiasco will be the end of the lying murdering scum Lukashenko's lif career.
I keep forgetting that Russia has all those puppet governments. I wonder how expensive it is to run a puppet government like that. When forced to cut costs, I wonder which ones get cut loose first? Kazakhstan? Belarus? Is Mongolia still a puppet?
 
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I keep forgetting that Russia has all those puppet governments. I wonder how expensive it is to run a puppet government like that. When forced to cut costs, I wonder which ones get cut loose first? Kazakhstan? Belarus? Is Mongolia still a puppet?
Maybe Borat has some ideas about this.
 
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Imnotgoing Sideways

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We don't know that because we still, still, have no idea what his goals are.
If he can't have the country, he'll take the soil it stands upon.

Also, being in a company with offices in Moscow, our people are facing absolute poverty. These sanctions are hurting the people more than Putin and he obviously doesn't care. The guy has as much humanity as the ashes of a burnt turd.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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The Ukrainian Pravda - don't confuse it with the Russian one - has published an internal discussion paper of the Vaidal club. Vaidal club is one of the most important Russian gatherings of the Russian state elites, especially on terms of foreign policy. It's also a think tank. Putin has often spoken before that club.

The Pravda gives the internal positions of Valdai with own comments. I'll just talk about the original positions of Valdai.

The paper mentioned is named "After response from Washington: three scenarios" by Ivan Timofeev, dated 31st of Jan 2022 and outlines what the think tank considers to be the most likely outcome for each scenario.

First scenario is war. Here's what the paper has to say about it:
1. The anti-Russian course of Ukraine in peaceful conditions is inevitable. An outwardly amorphous, but rather stable political regime has been formed in the country, for which compromises with Russia are impossible. The Ukrainian government itself sees no alternative to ensuring the country's security, except through NATO membership. The West will also work towards integrating Ukraine into its security structures. It is impossible to change this course without a war. Even if NATO membership does not take place for formal reasons in the coming years or decades, nothing prevents the deployment of shock or other systems on the territory of the country, as well as the large-scale rearmament of the Armed Forces of Ukraine at the expense of Western countries. Sooner or later, Ukraine will turn into a springboard for possible military operations against Russia. Given the length of the border, this situation puts Russia at a disadvantage, incomparable with NATO membership of the Baltic countries. The military development of Ukraine by the United States and the West is a fundamental threat to Russia.

2. The Ukrainian army can be defeated relatively quickly. It is possible to avoid a protracted war, to carry out a lightning-fast operation. Further, it is possible either to divide the country into two states, one of which (Eastern Ukraine) remains in the Russian orbit, and the other (Western Ukraine) in the western one. Another option is a forceful regime change in Ukraine, with the expectation that there will be no massive resistance from the population.

3. Western sanctions will hurt Russia. But it won't be fatal. The military security benefits are greater than the economic losses. Economic damage does not translate into public protest in Russia, it can be kept under control. The authority of the authorities will grow as a result of the solution of a major historical task. Sanctions against Russia will further undermine confidence in the US-centric financial system. Russia will be able to exist in the "fortress" mode. An exit from the global economy is possible and even desirable. The West itself is in decline. His imminent death is inevitable. Victory in Ukraine will deal another blow to the authority of the United States and the West, and will accelerate their global retreat.


In this scenario, we should expect a radical breakdown in relations between Russia and the West, incomparable with any previous crisis. It will lead to (a) large-scale human casualties; (b) a serious and long-term economic crisis in Russia as a result of Western sanctions; (c) significant militarization of Eastern Europe by NATO. It will be possible to talk about the formation of a fundamentally new order in Europe. It will be based on a tough confrontation. The only obstacle to a major war will be nuclear weapons, although the risks of escalation into a conflict between Russia and NATO cannot be ruled out either. Russia in this scenario becomes a kind of European North Korea, but with much more opportunities.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Second scenario is: permanent tension with the West.
(1.) The costs of a military solution to the Ukrainian question are too high. Even in the event of a quick defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the problem of control of the territory arises. The puppet regime will require significant financial injections. At the same time, it will certainly be inefficient and corrupt. Given the damage from sanctions, fueling the regime will further exacerbate the shortage of resources within Russia itself. Even complete control of the territory of Ukraine will not prevent the West from forming and arming Ukrainian formations in adjacent territories, financing and providing for a wide underground in Ukraine itself. The war will lead to economic decline in the occupied territories, which will make their population even more susceptible to Western propaganda. If part of the territory is retained by the pro-Western regime, the conflict becomes permanent and protracted.

(2) The internal stability of Russian society against the backdrop of economic damage from sanctions, the costs of the war and injections into Ukraine is not guaranteed. The inevitable inflation in this case and the reduction of already low incomes are fraught with the growth of protest moods. It will be possible to compensate for them with military victories only for a short time. A protracted economic crisis or, at best, stagnation creates the basis for a long-term protest. At the same time, certain standards of consumption and lifestyle have developed in Russian society. It is hardly ready to be a European North Korea.

(3) The global role of the West is declining. For the US, the Asia-Pacific region is indeed a growing priority. But this does not mean that the West is weak enough to not inflict significant damage on Russia. There is no guarantee that sanctions against Russia will critically harm the West itself. In the European direction, the West has significant reserves to contain Russia even in the event of rivalry with the PRC. Support for Russia from Beijing in case of war is not guaranteed.

(4) Maintaining permanent tension in relations with the West produces results. At least in Western capitals they are beginning to listen to Russia. Tension is a useful tool for diplomacy. It is necessary to keep it on the borders with Ukraine, as well as add it to other regions - in Latin America, the Middle East, the Asia-Pacific Region (together with China), and Africa. If possible, operate with relatively cheap but effective campaigns, similar to the VKS operation in Syria.

The scenario does not radically change the situation in Europe. Relations between Russia and the West remain in a mode of rivalry, but do not cross red lines. The West is slowly building up sanctions pressure, as well as consistently integrating Ukraine into its security space.

Third scenario is "smile and wave", so just let Ukraine go.
(1.) Ukraine is a toxic asset for the West. Large-scale aid is stolen, institutions remain corrupt. The country is not a supplier, but a consumer of security. Its membership in NATO is counterproductive for the bloc due to unresolved conflicts and dubious contributions to common security. On the contrary, Ukraine is a source of numerous problems. Taking it on bail is troublesome and costly. If the West goes for it, then Ukraine will make NATO an even more unbalanced structure, in which the number of "freeloaders" will grow. Being in the western area, Ukraine is doomed to further degradation. There will be "Moldovization of Ukraine", that is, the outflow of personnel to the West and the primitivization of its economy. The West has no reason to support Ukraine for a long time with its help. She will shrink as well as the place of Ukraine in the system of Western priorities. Without any military intervention, Ukraine will degrade, turn into a peripheral country and a third-order priority.
(2.) Russia has significant military capabilities to stop any threat emanating from the territory of Ukraine and NATO countries. Even without the use of nuclear weapons in a regional conflict, the RF Armed Forces can inflict unacceptable damage on rivals in Europe. Control of Crimea ensures dominance in the Black Sea. The deployment of strike weapons or missile defense elements on the territory of Ukraine is possible in the long term. But it does not prevent Russia from improving its own offensive systems, which in any case are capable of inflicting unacceptable damage on a potential adversary.
(3.) The Ukrainian political regime is unstable. Competent and long-term work will allow Moscow to find its levers of influence on the regime and communication with society. Close from Russia will be difficult. In addition, Russia retains humanitarian opportunities in the form of the labor market and the education system. They are much more modest in comparison with the EU, which does not negate the possibility of their use. When played for a long time, humanitarian mechanisms produce results.
(4.) Relations with the West are not limited to Ukraine. Russia has many dimensions in which it can bargain with the West. The marginalization of the Ukrainian theme is quite possible and even desirable. The rivalry between the US and China is likely to set the pace for global life in the coming decades. It is advisable to avoid direct participation in this clash and preserve room for maneuver.

5.) The Russian economy remains fragile and dependent on commodity markets. Its overstrain by war and sanctions is inappropriate. Breaking economic relations with the West is also counterproductive.
In this scenario, there is a partial de-escalation of the situation on the Ukrainian issue, although the relations of rivalry with the West remain. Moscow skillfully manages such rivalries, facilitating, where possible, overloading the West with toxic assets in the form of freeloaders and fiery liberals. At the same time, it keeps the game on all boards of the global agenda - from climate to arms control.

Conclusions by the author of the scenario:

The first scenario ("War") is obviously fraught with significant risks for Russia. For the West, it is also undesirable, but it also has some advantages in the form of an accelerated consolidation of NATO and the exhaustion of one of the major global adversaries.

The second scenario ("Permanent tension") is quite acceptable for the West. For Russia, it has fewer risks, but not so many benefits. Its main danger is the gradual buildup of Western pressure. There is such a danger in the third scenario ("Smile and wave") . The West also feels quite comfortable in it, but Russia's success is not predetermined and will depend on strategic patience, the ability to manage limited resources and use the opponent's energy in their own interests. The main task for the West will be to "calm down" Russia and bring competition with it into a sluggish regime that is convenient for itself.The main task for Russia is to avoid excessive overexertion and, at the same time, not get bogged down in a costly confrontation for itself, maintaining and using levers of pressure on the West where its own interests require it.

So the most important insight when reading this report is that Putin betrayed the Russian elites, because even the Russian elites didn't view war as desireable and therefore also not the deep state. This means that this war is not just one against Russia, because mostly against Putin in reality. This is why Putin is behaving like he did with long tables, being in bunkers and such.

It also might be just these people who will put an end to Putin soon, since the response of the West turned out to be much harsher in reality then even in the worst case scenarios before.

 

Imnotgoing Sideways

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I definitely lost confidence in Reuters for this situation. Personally I've found the most believable output coming from Al Jazeera and DW. At least the Arabs and Germans seem to be providing the most comparable updates.
 

bubblesort

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Second scenario is: permanent tension with the West.
(1.) The costs of a military solution to the Ukrainian question are too high. Even in the event of a quick defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the problem of control of the territory arises. The puppet regime will require significant financial injections. At the same time, it will certainly be inefficient and corrupt. Given the damage from sanctions, fueling the regime will further exacerbate the shortage of resources within Russia itself. Even complete control of the territory of Ukraine will not prevent the West from forming and arming Ukrainian formations in adjacent territories, financing and providing for a wide underground in Ukraine itself. The war will lead to economic decline in the occupied territories, which will make their population even more susceptible to Western propaganda. If part of the territory is retained by the pro-Western regime, the conflict becomes permanent and protracted.
These scenarios are very well thought out, but a bit too high minded and think-tankey to me, if that makes sense. I think Putin's goals are more simple:

Russia has a puny economy, which is kept puny by kleptocrats.

If you want an example of how they operate, look at Pavel Durov, who is Russia's version of Zuckerberg. He's not actually an oligarch, so they strong armed him into giving up his first company. Then he became paranoid, started running his companies like globe trotting cults, tried to start telegram as a crypto company, but pivoted away from that when the Western bankers explained they weren't going to play ball with him, so he and ended up running the telegram we know now, and he does it from the UAE.

The story of Pavel Durov is only one example. In the end, all Russian ventures end in either bankruptcy, or with kleptocratic oligarchs kicking in the door and forcing owners to sign away their companies at gun point, or because they are tortured. The point is, the Russian economy can not grow like this. At the same time, Putin can not remove the kleptocrats without destroying his own power base. This is a problem, because as time goes by, the Russian population grows, and infrastructure crumbles, and the state becomes more expensive to maintain, and it all falls apart if they can't get some economic growth, from somewhere.

So the only way for the Russian economy to grow under Putin is through conquest. They lack the resources for literal annexation of new lands, but they can set up puppet governments, in places like Kazakhstan and Belarus. In these vassal territories, the kleptocrats are free to steal from entrepreneurs all day long, with no consequences.

Ukraine recently got more energy wealth, from oil and fracking. Zelensky and his people would not let the kleptocrats simply take it, but a puppet like Lukaschenko would. So what Putin and his kleptocrats want, is to install a puppet like Lukaschenko, and then march out of Ukraine. (I know that sounds insane to the American ear, because we never march out of anywhere, but that's what normal countries do after a war)

They do not want to literally annex Ukraine, because they don't actually have the manpower or equipment to do that. Western media likes to imagine the red army is massive, and can annex everything East of Berlin, but that's just propaganda and cold war memories. Russia is puny now, compared to what they used to be.

In short: These are not high minded geopolitical geniuses playing 3D chess. They are simple gangsters who want to steal with impunity.
 
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I had a sort of random thought.

Isn't Snowden hiding in Russia? I don't supwr follow him but I wonder what, if anything is going on with him in all this.
 
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Sid

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I definitely lost confidence in Reuters for this situation. Personally I've found the most believable output coming from Al Jazeera and DW. At least the Arabs and Germans seem to be providing the most comparable updates.
It is almost inevitable that propaganda and fake news slip trough every now and then.
There is so much information available about this war on so many different media. A mistake is easily made even by the most seasoned professionals.
 

WolfEyes

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I had a sort of random thought.

Isn't Snowden hiding in Russia? I don't supwr follow him but I wonder what, if anything is going on with him in all this.
 

Imnotgoing Sideways

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It is almost inevitable that propaganda and fake news slip trough every now and then.
There is so much information available about this war on so many different media. A mistake is easily made even by the most seasoned professionals.
Agreed. Noting that lost confidence is not zero confidence (cough*skyfoxmsnbc*cough).
 
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Romana

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It is almost inevitable that propaganda and fake news slip trough every now and then.
There is so much information available about this war on so many different media. A mistake is easily made even by the most seasoned professionals.
True, but information from TASS, being the Russian state news agency, the seasoned professionals should know not to take at face value.
 

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