The Russia-Ukraine War has begun

Argent Stonecutter

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The pope up and foremost cares about one thing - keeping as many people as possible alive, and preventing them from dying.
I would have thought it would be keeping as many people as possible Catholic. They won't die if they're Catholic.
 

Chin Rey

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The pope up and foremost cares about one thing - keeping as many people as possible alive, and preventing them from dying. That may be not a popular view about the events, but it's a possible and logical view if you really believe in that Russia will do with Ukraine anyway what they want to do in the end.
It's logical if you assume that the killing will stop once the fighting is over but that is a rather dubious assumption.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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I suppose, if you aren't reading history right, this would make sense, but we already know that Putin will not stop until he is stopped.
To quote Sun Tzu: "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

The West played his games in Ukraine, Russia did the same and there was not much talking in between or even efforts made to understand each other. Around that path a lot of people warned that this is a recipe for desaster, but were not much heared. And now the worst possible outcome so far of that became a reality.

People for example like Henry Kissinger in 5th of March 2014, who wrote this in the Washington Post:

Public discussion on Ukraine is all about confrontation. But do we know where we are going? In my life, I have seen four wars begun with great enthusiasm and public support, all of which we did not know how to end and from three of which we withdrew unilaterally. The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins.​
​
Far too often the Ukrainian issue is posed as a showdown: whether Ukraine joins the East or the West. But if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them.​
​
Russia must accept that to try to force Ukraine into a satellite status, and thereby move Russia’s borders again, would doom Moscow to repeat its history of self-fulfilling cycles of reciprocal pressures with Europe and the United States.​
​
The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country. Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus. The Russian religion spread from there. Ukraine has been part of Russia for centuries, and their histories were intertwined before then. Some of the most important battles for Russian freedom, starting with the Battle of Poltava in 1709 , were fought on Ukrainian soil. The Black Sea Fleet — Russia’s means of projecting power in the Mediterranean — is based by long-term lease in Sevastopol, in Crimea. Even such famed dissidents as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Joseph Brodsky insisted that Ukraine was an integral part of Russian history and, indeed, of Russia.​
​
The European Union must recognize that its bureaucratic dilatoriness and subordination of the strategic element to domestic politics in negotiating Ukraine’s relationship to Europe contributed to turning a negotiation into a crisis. Foreign policy is the art of establishing priorities.​
​
The Ukrainians are the decisive element. They live in a country with a complex history and a polyglot composition. The Western part was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1939 , when Stalin and Hitler divided up the spoils. Crimea, 60 percent of whose population is Russian , became part of Ukraine only in 1954 , when Nikita Khrushchev, a Ukrainian by birth, awarded it as part of the 300th-year celebration of a Russian agreement with the Cossacks. The west is largely Catholic; the east largely Russian Orthodox. The west speaks Ukrainian; the east speaks mostly Russian. Any attempt by one wing of Ukraine to dominate the other — as has been the pattern — would lead eventually to civil war or break up. To treat Ukraine as part of an East-West confrontation would scuttle for decades any prospect to bring Russia and the West — especially Russia and Europe — into a cooperative international system.​
​
Ukraine has been independent for only 23 years; it had previously been under some kind of foreign rule since the 14th century. Not surprisingly, its leaders have not learned the art of compromise, even less of historical perspective. The politics of post-independence Ukraine clearly demonstrates that the root of the problem lies in efforts by Ukrainian politicians to impose their will on recalcitrant parts of the country, first by one faction, then by the other. That is the essence of the conflict between Viktor Yanukovych and his principal political rival, Yulia Tymoshenko. They represent the two wings of Ukraine and have not been willing to share power. A wise U.S. policy toward Ukraine would seek a way for the two parts of the country to cooperate with each other. We should seek reconciliation, not the domination of a faction.​
​
Russia and the West, and least of all the various factions in Ukraine, have not acted on this principle. Each has made the situation worse. Russia would not be able to impose a military solution without isolating itself at a time when many of its borders are already precarious. For the West, the demonization of Vladimir Putin is not a policy; it is an alibi for the absence of one.​
​
Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers.​
​
Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:​
​
1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.​
​
2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.​
​
3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.​
​
4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.​
​
These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.​


And when looking at the developments and leaks out of the so perceived "peace talks" then point 1 and 2 on Kissinger's list are now quite clear and probbably become reality: the Ukraine has been pushed into the arms of the West by Putin's aggression. It wants to join the EU, badly. And Zelensky also offered to not join NATO. Neutrality of Ukraine was also according to Zelensky one point on the peace talks.

This would leave up point 4 for resolution; and here it becomes quite hard. 60% of the population on Crimea are Russians and 25% Ukrainian. So it's quite divided in its own, like the rest of the country.

So in the end the tragic events on the tides of war are producing political developments which are quite in line with what Kissinger proposed back then. It's a tragedy though that this didn't happen before war. And also a tragedy that it probably will take a long time before Putin is put before a court if ever, if he's not instead just killed before.
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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To quote Sun Tzu: "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

The West played his games in Ukraine, Russia did the same and there was not much talking in between or even efforts made to understand each other. Around that path a lot of people warned that this is a recipe for desaster, but were not much heared. And now the worst possible outcome so far of that became a reality.

People for example like Henry Kissinger in 5th of March 2014, who wrote this in the Washington Post:

Public discussion on Ukraine is all about confrontation. But do we know where we are going? In my life, I have seen four wars begun with great enthusiasm and public support, all of which we did not know how to end and from three of which we withdrew unilaterally. The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins.​
​
Far too often the Ukrainian issue is posed as a showdown: whether Ukraine joins the East or the West. But if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them.​
​
Russia must accept that to try to force Ukraine into a satellite status, and thereby move Russia’s borders again, would doom Moscow to repeat its history of self-fulfilling cycles of reciprocal pressures with Europe and the United States.​
​
The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country. Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus. The Russian religion spread from there. Ukraine has been part of Russia for centuries, and their histories were intertwined before then. Some of the most important battles for Russian freedom, starting with the Battle of Poltava in 1709 , were fought on Ukrainian soil. The Black Sea Fleet — Russia’s means of projecting power in the Mediterranean — is based by long-term lease in Sevastopol, in Crimea. Even such famed dissidents as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Joseph Brodsky insisted that Ukraine was an integral part of Russian history and, indeed, of Russia.​
​
The European Union must recognize that its bureaucratic dilatoriness and subordination of the strategic element to domestic politics in negotiating Ukraine’s relationship to Europe contributed to turning a negotiation into a crisis. Foreign policy is the art of establishing priorities.​
​
The Ukrainians are the decisive element. They live in a country with a complex history and a polyglot composition. The Western part was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1939 , when Stalin and Hitler divided up the spoils. Crimea, 60 percent of whose population is Russian , became part of Ukraine only in 1954 , when Nikita Khrushchev, a Ukrainian by birth, awarded it as part of the 300th-year celebration of a Russian agreement with the Cossacks. The west is largely Catholic; the east largely Russian Orthodox. The west speaks Ukrainian; the east speaks mostly Russian. Any attempt by one wing of Ukraine to dominate the other — as has been the pattern — would lead eventually to civil war or break up. To treat Ukraine as part of an East-West confrontation would scuttle for decades any prospect to bring Russia and the West — especially Russia and Europe — into a cooperative international system.​
​
Ukraine has been independent for only 23 years; it had previously been under some kind of foreign rule since the 14th century. Not surprisingly, its leaders have not learned the art of compromise, even less of historical perspective. The politics of post-independence Ukraine clearly demonstrates that the root of the problem lies in efforts by Ukrainian politicians to impose their will on recalcitrant parts of the country, first by one faction, then by the other. That is the essence of the conflict between Viktor Yanukovych and his principal political rival, Yulia Tymoshenko. They represent the two wings of Ukraine and have not been willing to share power. A wise U.S. policy toward Ukraine would seek a way for the two parts of the country to cooperate with each other. We should seek reconciliation, not the domination of a faction.​
​
Russia and the West, and least of all the various factions in Ukraine, have not acted on this principle. Each has made the situation worse. Russia would not be able to impose a military solution without isolating itself at a time when many of its borders are already precarious. For the West, the demonization of Vladimir Putin is not a policy; it is an alibi for the absence of one.​
​
Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers.​
​
Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:​
​
1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.​
​
2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.​
​
3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.​
​
4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.​
​
These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.​


And when looking at the developments and leaks out of the so perceived "peace talks" then point 1 and 2 on Kissinger's list are now quite clear and probbably become reality: the Ukraine has been pushed into the arms of the West by Putin's aggression. It wants to join the EU, badly. And Zelensky also offered to not join NATO. Neutrality of Ukraine was also according to Zelensky one point on the peace talks.

This would leave up point 4 for resolution; and here it becomes quite hard. 60% of the population on Crimea are Russians and 25% Ukrainian. So it's quite divided in its own, like the rest of the country.

So in the end the tragic events on the tides of war are producing political developments which are quite in line with what Kissinger proposed back then. It's a tragedy though that this didn't happen before war. And also a tragedy that it probably will take a long time before Putin is put before a court if ever, if he's not instead just killed before.
Personally, I think we fucked up when we made the USSR the new boogyman, instead of reaching out then.

I think we also need to let Ukraine be Ukraine; They chose the west, they chose NATO.

But right now, if we'd reached out a hand of friendship to the USSR, we'd likely not be in a place were Putin was in charge, or maybe he'd be an enlightened ruler instead of what he is.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Personally, I think we fucked up when we made the USSR the new boogyman, instead of reaching out then.

I think we also need to let Ukraine be Ukraine; They chose the west, they chose NATO.

But right now, if we'd reached out a hand of friendship to the USSR, we'd likely not be in a place were Putin was in charge, or maybe he'd be an enlightened ruler instead of what he is.
Sorry, I'm confused about the chronology here. The USSR lasted from 1920--1991. At what point (other than during WW2) do you say the US should have "reached out a hand of friendship to the USSR" and what would this have meant?
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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Sorry, I'm confused about the chronology here. The USSR lasted from 1920--1991. At what point (other than during WW2) do you say the US should have "reached out a hand of friendship to the USSR" and what would this have meant?
After WWII - when the US wasn't a mess from a World War, even while Europe was. But according to my spouse, we did try and Stalin rebuffed the 'charity'. Since his focus was specifically the USSR, I'll guess that he knows more than I do.

Just, I knew that right after, we started doing the whole communism is bad, let's add 'God' to our pledge of allegiance, and our money and.... sure, it was about ten years after, but still....

ETA: I'm a history buff, but I've always been more of an ancient history and old history buff - not modern history.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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I think we also need to let Ukraine be Ukraine; They chose the west, they chose NATO.
Well the Ukraine is free to want whatever they want to do. For that to happen they must first settle their own conflicts, because this is a NATO admission requirement. Minsk II didn't work, because both sides didn't abide to it.

So even if a miracle would happen and Ukraine would become a conflict free state, still then Ukraine letting in the NATO would be a very bad idea given how the Russians would react. They would go totally loose cannon mode, fully unhinged ballistic. And this can be in nobody's interest.

Russia views NATO as an aggressive military pact build at the moment to contain it; whenever they adressed this it was just wished away. So they're now firmly sure about NATO is there to put them on hold and down. To convince them otherwise in a way that they would be fine with Ukraine being a member of it would require nothing short of a miracle.

That's also the reason why there are no official troops from neighboring states, like Poland, are officially fighting side an side with Ukrainian troops, because Poland is a member state of the NATO.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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Well the Ukraine is free to want whatever they want to do. For that to happen they must first settle their own conflicts, because this is a NATO admission requirement. Minsk II didn't work, because both sides didn't abide to it.

So even if a miracle would happen and Ukraine would become a conflict free state, still then Ukraine letting in the NATO would be a very bad idea given how the Russians would react. They would go totally loose cannon mode, fully unhinged ballistic. And this can be in nobody's interest.

Russia views NATO as an aggressive military pact build at the moment to contain it; whenever they adressed this it was just wished away. So they're now firmly sure about NATO is there to put them on hold and down. To convince them otherwise in a way that they would be fine with Ukraine being a member of it would require nothing short of a miracle.

That's also the reason why there are no official troops from neighboring states, like Poland, are officially fighting side an side with Ukrainian troops, because Poland is a member state of the NATO.
Personally, one doesn't cave to bullies - one stands up to them. There are already countries in NATO right on Russia's border. NATO is just an excuse. Putin was going to either invade them, or do like he's done in the US, UK, France, etc and worked on installing puppets. He wants an empire greater than Russia at its peak.

And if other countries stand up to the US when we're being the bully, I'm all for it. I do not like bullies, no matter what side they are on.
 

Soen Eber

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Well the Ukraine is free to want whatever they want to do. For that to happen they must first settle their own conflicts, because this is a NATO admission requirement. Minsk II didn't work, because both sides didn't abide to it.

So even if a miracle would happen and Ukraine would become a conflict free state, still then Ukraine letting in the NATO would be a very bad idea given how the Russians would react. They would go totally loose cannon mode, fully unhinged ballistic. And this can be in nobody's interest.

Russia views NATO as an aggressive military pact build at the moment to contain it; whenever they adressed this it was just wished away. So they're now firmly sure about NATO is there to put them on hold and down. To convince them otherwise in a way that they would be fine with Ukraine being a member of it would require nothing short of a miracle.

That's also the reason why there are no official troops from neighboring states, like Poland, are officially fighting side an side with Ukrainian troops, because Poland is a member state of the NATO.
Russia is creating and stacking myth upon corrupted myth much as the American right is engaged in, building a cultural and mythological wall to beguile it's own citizenry, further preparing them to commit Voltair's warning of "Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

Is this something we can compromise and engage with? I don't have an answer. All I know is there will be more blood. We cannot prevent it, we can only contain it.
 
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Has this been referenced in the thread before?



 
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Khamon

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I figured him to be a Y-wing man.
 

Chin Rey

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This would leave up point 4 for resolution; and here it becomes quite hard. 60% of the population on Crimea are Russians and 25% Ukrainian. So it's quite divided in its own, like the rest of the country.
It's hard indeed but we have to be careful not to confuse ethnicity - or people's main language for that matter - with nationality. According to a poll held by the Raumkov Centre in 2011, 70.3% of Crimean residents regarded Ukraine as their "motherland". We also have to keep in mind that the reason why ethnic Russians are the majority in Crimea is the 1944 ethnic cleansing where a huge propotion of the peninsular's population was forcibly removed and replaced by Russians.