The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

Mona Eberhardt

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This was an opinion piece by Haaretz you are quoting here, not my text. But unless Biden enacts really hard pressure Netanyahu probably will escalate, and then we can all blame Israel for higher energy prices, a global economy in decline etc.
For the time being, the Mitsotakis regime in Greece blames Russia for the rising cost of living, despite the fact that Greece was handed by him to a string of monopolies and cartels where members of his cadre and close family work.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Problem is, Israeli society is astonishingly militarised, given to a religiously-fuelled
Asthonishingly? Not really given the fact it was greatly populated by Jews which survived the holocaust and it was surrounded from the beginning by enemy states, which only had one wish - put if off the map completely.

Even less astonishing when looking at the demographic development. Having a very militarized society in Israel was not astonishing, but a necessity to survive.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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For the time being, the Mitsotakis regime in Greece blames Russia for the rising cost of living, despite the fact that Greece was handed by him to a string of monopolies and cartels where members of his cadre and close family work.
Recent world events -- notably Covid and its aftermath and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, with its consequent disruption in grain and energy supplies to Europe and elsewhere -- have caused imposed inflationary pressures on all economies. Both the US and Europe have experienced high inflation as a consequence, which was only to be expected. They're all in the process of recovering, or not, depending on how their different economies work and how their different governments and central banks have responded.

Certainly in the UK, our current Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, has been widely mocked for boasting about the success of his "pledge" in January 2023 to bring down inflation, which all commentators, at the time and since, have pointed out amounted to doing little more than looking at the Bank of England's inflation forecast for what was likely to happen over the next 12 months, and trying to take the credit for the accuracy of its predictions.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Recent world events -- notably Covid and its aftermath and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, with its consequent disruption in grain and energy supplies to Europe and elsewhere -- have caused imposed inflationary pressures on all economies. Both the US and Europe have experienced high inflation as a consequence, which was only to be expected. They're all in the process of recovering, or not, depending on how their different economies work and how their different governments and central banks have responded.

Certainly in the UK, our current Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, has been widely mocked for boasting about the success of his "pledge" in January 2023 to bring down inflation, which all commentators, at the time and since, have pointed out amounted to doing little more than looking at the Bank of England's inflation forecast for what was likely to happen over the next 12 months, and trying to take the credit for the accuracy of its predictions.
I know all that. But Greece is even worse, because the government has chosen this circumstance to give certain cartels completely free rein to push prices way above EU average. Yes, there was inflation due to Covid and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but this was exacerbated here by corruption.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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Asthonishingly? Not really given the fact it was greatly populated by Jews which survived the holocaust and it was surrounded from the beginning by enemy states, which only had one wish - put if off the map completely.

Even less astonishing when looking at the demographic development. Having a very militarized society in Israel was not astonishing, but a necessity to survive.
The Nakba doesn't really make Israel's neighbours feel at ease having them around. Neither do the actions of terror groups like Irgun and the Lehi Gang.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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The Nakba doesn't really make Israel's neighbours feel at ease having them around. Neither do the actions of terror groups like Irgun and the Lehi Gang.
We were already at that point, but it seems you only tend do remember what is supporting your POV.

And the point of common ground here was: yes, the Nakba was a terrible thing which happened to the Arabs back then, BUT there never would have been a Nakba if the Arabs didn't attack Israel immediately after its foundation. It were the Arabs back then who choose to go at war.

In other words: the Arabs started the chain of events which lead to this.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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We were already at that point, but it seems you only tend do remember what is supporting your POV.

And the point of common ground here was: yes, the Nakba was a terrible thing which happened to the Arabs back then, BUT there never would have been a Nakba if the Arabs didn't attack Israel immediately after its foundation. It were the Arabs back then who choose to go at war.

In other words: the Arabs started the chain of events which lead to this.
So, ethnic cleansing is basically justified simply because the "wrong people" (the "browns") don't want half their land taken away from them, especially when they haven't been asked about it. As was, I suppose, the genocide against the Native Americans who chose to go to war against the white settlers...
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Ah, yes, the classic narrative: "the BAD ARABS (i.e.: the brown people who don't even believe in our God) who are inherently liars and unreliable and are the only ones who are to blame. Look, they don't even like having their families killed and their homes and farms taken away from them and given to some randos under the pretext of a supernatural real estate agent! They're BAD BAD BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD."
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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What's your point here aside being very childish right now and totally ignoring history?

One of the fundamental requirements of a long lasting coexistance and piece without suppressing one side is trust between both sides. What Hamas did at 07/10/2023 is anything but a trust building exercise.

Also still having the plan to create a muslimic state in the territory of all of Israel in its founding charter is neither.

It does not matter who will come into power in Israel after Netanyahu probably soon, the majority of Israel's population right now has no trust into the Palestines. The public opinion is that it does not matter what we give them and how willing we were to make compromises, we always got only bitten back in our hand strongly for decades. This is what puts a possible two state solution far away into the future, if anything.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Nobody cares about Israeli nationalism and its historical revisionism anymore. Sorry. Enough is enough.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Nobody cares about Israeli nationalism and its historical revisionism anymore. Sorry. Enough is enough.
And now what? Even if you don't care about this, the 9.5 million people of Israel won't vanish over night or move elsewhere just because of that, of which around 2 million are Palestines by the way, as well the 4.8 million Palestines living in the Palestinian territories will neither.

You've got to work with what's being there in the region, so this POV does not change anything, because for peace without suppression aka two state solution you do need enough trust between the major players. This is a fundamental rule all around the planet, and the starting point here is that both players have a big distrust against each other. And the Hamas still has in its effective founding charter that it wants to erect a muslimic state in the territory of all of Israel, so hard to start from there. Welcome to realpolitik.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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And now what? Even if you don't care about this, the 9.5 million people of Israel won't vanish over night or move elsewhere just because of that, of which around 2 million are Palestines by the way, as well the 4.8 million Palestines living in the Palestinian territories will neither.

You've got to work with what's being there in the region, so this POV does not change anything, because for peace without suppression aka two state solution you do need enough trust between the major players. This is a fundamental rule all around the planet. Welcome to realpolitik.
You're also forgetting that calling a violent action "response to terrorism" does not make it less genocidal. See Darfur (which Israel used as an excuse), Myanmar, or China's persecution of the Uyghurs: all these ethnic persecutions were started under the same pretext. So, enough with the "terrorist" excuse.
 

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Mona, you are just all rage and rants at the moment, cherry picking stuff with heavy topic hopping. And you totally don't get my point, either. This is anything but a good mood and way to participate in a discussion. Maybe you should take a break.
 
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Ellie

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So, ethnic cleansing is basically justified simply because the "wrong people" (the "browns") don't want half their land taken away from them, especially when they haven't been asked about it. As was, I suppose, the genocide against the Native Americans who chose to go to war against the white settlers...
More or less, yes. The Palestinians have been 'othered' out of relevance & sympathy for them reduced as much as possible by massive Israeli hasbara operations. If you think this is an exaggeration, just remember Biden said this:

"On October 11, four days after the Hamas-led attacks in Israel, President Joe Biden addressed a group of Jewish community leaders in the Indian Treaty Room of the Executive Office Building in Washington, D.C. “I’ve been doing this a long time,” Biden said “I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”

Joe Biden Keeps Repeating His False Claim That He Saw Pictures of Beheaded Babies


There was a young male student who decided to visit Gaza for a project he was working on. While in line waiting at the checkpoint to enter, he recalls fighting against the voices programmed into his brain he run away quickly, because the Gazan man behind him was a terrorist who would kill him. He only then realized just how pervasive this propaganda is.

Sadly, I think we will see the massive emergence of more horrifying news & reports detailing the actions of what Netanyahu claimed is the 'most moral army.'

There's already plenty of socmed posts by IDF soldiers & settlers showing their own war crimes, while all the propaganda about 40 beheaded babies & mass SA by Hamas on Oct 7th have been exposed as outright lies.

Every accusation an admission of guilt? Almost there.

I don't give a flying furry fuck who started this conflict, but I certainly know who has, and continues to be made to pay for it.
 

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There's already plenty of socmed posts by IDF soldiers & settlers showing their own war crimes, while all the propaganda about 40 beheaded babies & mass SA by Hamas on Oct 7th have been exposed as outright lies.
Both sides are lying. And while there are no beheaded babies it does not change the fact that enough people were indeed killed by Hamas at 07/10/2023, and that they've captured 253 hostages as well.
 

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Both sides are lying. And while there are no beheaded babies it does not change the fact that enough people were indeed killed by Hamas at 07/10/2023, and that they've captured 253 hostages as well.
Yes, this is true. However, the narrative is that Israel is simply defending itself against Hamas when they wipe out tens of thousands of civilians. Hamas is evil and does need to be eradicated, but what Israel is doing is far worse now. If you question what they are doing, you are anti-semitic or you don't support Israel. Supporting the Palestineans right to self determination and to not be slaughtered by the IDF under the guise of "shit happens" is not anti-semitic. It is recognizing that Netanyahu and company are out of fucking control.
 

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Nobody cares about Israeli nationalism and its historical revisionism anymore. Sorry. Enough is enough.
I wouldn't say no one cares. Israel absolutely deserves security and freedom. So does Palestine. There is revisionism on all sides. However, you are right that enough is enough. The world cannot stand by and let Israel run roughshod anymore.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Yes, this is true. However, the narrative is that Israel is simply defending itself against Hamas when they wipe out tens of thousands of civilians. Hamas is evil and does need to be eradicated, but what Israel is doing is far worse now. If you question what they are doing, you are anti-semitic or you don't support Israel. Supporting the Palestineans right to self determination and to not be slaughtered by the IDF under the guise of "shit happens" is not anti-semitic. It is recognizing that Netanyahu and company are out of fucking control.
I do agree with that that Netanyahu totally went overboard with his reaction to 07/10/2023. As I mentioned earlier the thing is that to achieve peace both sides must learn to trust each other enough. Hopefully the successor of Netanyahu gets elected soon and is able to start initiate that painful process.