The 2024 U.S. Presidential race

detrius

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I am going to confess that I don't understand why the US has a two party system. There is, I assume, some historical or structural reason for it?
America wasn't founded by mathematicians or engineers, but by lawyers who waxed lyrically about freedom and invidividual rights while they owned slaves and planned to steal the land from the indigenous population.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Of course.

But don't you think we can do better than complacently choosing between Party 1, who is arming the country committing a literal genocide, and Party 2, who would be even worse?
At some point in the future perhaps. But not, I suggest, less than three weeks before the election, when votes are already being cast.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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I am going to confess that I don't understand why the US has a two party system. There is, I assume, some historical or structural reason for it?
Because copying the Westminster Parliamentary System in any way was politically poison, and so they came up with a horrible bodge that was so obviously locked into a hyper-partisan outcome that Washington was bitching about it within a decade.
 

Innula Zenovka

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There's also the issue that US foreign policy in the Middle East is based, among other things, on having Saudi Arabia and Israel as reliable regional super-power allies in a coalition to contain Iran and its proxies and allies, and has been for decades. Saudi and Israel know this, which means they know that they can do pretty much what they want domestically with almost complete impunity.

This means that any calls for significant changes in US policy towards Israel or Saudi are, in effect, calls for changes to US policy towards Iran. Such a change may well be highly desirable, but any calls for changes in US support for Israel have to be made in that context, as well, of course, in the context of the fact that Israel has nukes that the US doesn't want to see used or to have fall into the hands of a pro-Iranian Islamist militia, and the fact that the US has not unreasonable worries that, however that organisation's Western supporters interpret the phrase, Hamas wants Palestine judenrein "from the river to the sea."
 

Beebo Brink

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I am going to confess that I don't understand why the US has a two party system. There is, I assume, some historical or structural reason for it?
It's simple game mechanics, the result of our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections. As long as we have FPTP, we will have two, and only two, relevant parties. Bronxelf had a link to a wonderful video that showed exactly why this always games out to two parties, but I haven't been able to find it.
 

Noodles

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Of course.

But don't you think we can do better than complacently choosing between Party 1, who is arming the country committing a literal genocide, and Party 2, who would be even worse?
No, we can't.

The teonparty system sucks, but its what exists. And the vast majority of Americans, don't care about either side of the conflict and more likely, the vast majority barrly know its happening.

There are 1000 issues to care about when picking here, you are never going to get 100% agreement, especially not from everyone.

If anything , thats probably the core difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. The Republicans are MUCH more of a "hive mind" on issues. The Democrats are much more diverse.

As the saying goes, "Don't let perfection be the enemy of productivity."

We want a better system, election reform, ranked choice, etc etc so maybe 3rd parties can start to be viable, there is a path to that, but its not through the Republicans trying to tear down democracy for a Christofacist dictatorship.

It sucks that its not going to happen fast enough to have amy relevance on thos decade's fighting between Israel and Palestine. And we shouldnmake noise over it, there are people in congress making noise over it. Democratic Party people.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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Any attempt to change the party system in the US would , to my mind, necessitate negotiating a series of changes to the US Constitution that both existing parties and all states could accept.

Good luck with that.
This is exactly why it's not happening. We'd need a large majority of Americans to agree to a major change in how our system works which is hopeless in the current political climate. We'd need to switch to something like ranked choice voting and or a parliamentary system. Most Americans are too proud of the current system and don't want to copy ANYTHING from other countries because the founding fathers are viewed as magical beings who surely knew the best system!!!

I'm not even sure I want a multi party system anymore. On one hand, we'd get at least one actually left party that can do something. That would be nice. ....but I'm sure we'd also get a much more extreme fascists party. I really think a new American Nazi party would emerge and actually get seats.
 

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Any attempt to change the party system in the US would , to my mind, necessitate negotiating a series of changes to the US Constitution that both existing parties and all states could accept.

Good luck with that.
Exactly. Changing the current system to better reflect the desires of the country's population would significantly strengthen the Democratic party, which routinely wins the popular vote. This is why Republicans have been fighting voter rights tooth-and-claw. They are just barely hanging on to power as it is.

Democratic votes would be most receptive to making those changes, but only if the changes were applied unilaterally to all states at the same time. If you fought this battle state by state, and blue states embraced the revisions, they would lose power. Their red population would gain, meanwhile the blue portions of red states would stay depressed, and the end result would be an even stronger GOP.
 

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And to be blunt, most third party efforts start at the top, trying to get a longshot presidential run off the ground. Without considering that a President without a party in Congress is doomed.

Change happens in the US within parties by working on the precinct level first (Trump's people have done a thorough job of removing most traditional Republicans from those positions) and working on city, county, and legislative offices. We have had multiple party systems using the names of the current parties but with very different coalitions making up those parties.
 

Cindy Claveau

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This is exactly why it's not happening. We'd need a large majority of Americans to agree to a major change in how our system works which is hopeless in the current political climate.
:word: The thing is, we've had 3rd parties in the past. They just never broke through enough to gain any permanence.

I would amend Goblin's statement as "a large majority of Americans will never agree on anything". The sole caveat I can think of is war. We do seem to coalesce behind bombing people.
 

detrius

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It's simple game mechanics, the result of our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections. As long as we have FPTP, we will have two, and only two, relevant parties. Bronxelf had a link to a wonderful video that showed exactly why this always games out to two parties, but I haven't been able to find it.
You probably mean this one:




Full playlist:

 

Scylla Rhiadra

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Oh god. Who the hell knows. 2009? 2010?
There's also the issue that US foreign policy in the Middle East is based, among other things, on having Saudi Arabia and Israel as reliable regional super-power allies in a coalition to contain Iran and its proxies and allies, and has been for decades. Saudi and Israel know this, which means they know that they can do pretty much what they want domestically with almost complete impunity.

This means that any calls for significant changes in US policy towards Israel or Saudi are, in effect, calls for changes to US policy towards Iran. Such a change may well be highly desirable, but any calls for changes in US support for Israel have to be made in that context, as well, of course, in the context of the fact that Israel has nukes that the US doesn't want to see used or to have fall into the hands of a pro-Iranian Islamist militia, and the fact that the US has not unreasonable worries that, however that organisation's Western supporters interpret the phrase, Hamas wants Palestine judenrein "from the river to the sea."
The problem of course is that the current course of action is self-defeating. It's inevitably radicalizing even more Palestinians -- hell, it's radicalized me -- and has made Israel, and to some degree the US itself, into an international pariah. The two-state solution, which is almost certainly the only real path to peace, is even deader now than it was a year ago, in part because Israel has been emboldened by its apparent impunity to work openly against it, and in part because of that radicalization in the Arab world. And in the process, the status of international law and order has been perhaps fatally weakened, and not in a way that even benefits the US.

So, while I get the "logic" behind it, the current US course ultimately seems a bit suicidal. It would take a cleverer person than me to figure out the mechanics of it, but I'd have thought the best way to undercut Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas would be to strong arm all sides, but particularly Israel, to the table with the assistance and support of as many UN members and Western allies as possible (and I'd think this would be a generally pretty popular move), and more or less impose a two-state solution. Yes, I know -- the devil is in the details. But what they're doing now is patently not working.

As for this election, were I American I would likely be following the example of someone like Mehdi Hasan: fight like hell for change, but concede that, yes, one is inevitably going to have to vote for Harris, however distasteful the prospect might be.
 

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Not to mention that negotiating changes to the constitution in the current alt-white Republican context would be extremely dangerous.
"We will agree to use Ranked choice, but by default the Republican candidate gets at least one vote per ballot already selected."
 
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Free

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Ooh, new lawsuits no doubt in the works!

Billionaire Elon Musk promoted debunked conspiracy theories about election fraud Thursday at the first of a series of planned campaign events across Pennsylvania meant to rally support for former President Donald Trump’s campaign.

At a town hall hosted at a high school outside Philadelphia, Musk referred to the false conspiracy theory that Dominion Voting Systems was part of a plot to rig U.S. elections in recent years.
 

Innula Zenovka

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The problem of course is that the current course of action is self-defeating. It's inevitably radicalizing even more Palestinians -- hell, it's radicalized me -- and has made Israel, and to some degree the US itself, into an international pariah. The two-state solution, which is almost certainly the only real path to peace, is even deader now than it was a year ago, in part because Israel has been emboldened by its apparent impunity to work openly against it, and in part because of that radicalization in the Arab world. And in the process, the status of international law and order has been perhaps fatally weakened, and not in a way that even benefits the US.

So, while I get the "logic" behind it, the current US course ultimately seems a bit suicidal. It would take a cleverer person than me to figure out the mechanics of it, but I'd have thought the best way to undercut Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas would be to strong arm all sides, but particularly Israel, to the table with the assistance and support of as many UN members and Western allies as possible (and I'd think this would be a generally pretty popular move), and more or less impose a two-state solution. Yes, I know -- the devil is in the details. But what they're doing now is patently not working.

As for this election, were I American I would likely be following the example of someone like Mehdi Hasan: fight like hell for change, but concede that, yes, one is inevitably going to have to vote for Harris, however distasteful the prospect might be.
The problem is, though, that you can't separate US policy towards Israel from US policy towards Iran and the Middle East in general. So unless and until the US can settle on a Middle East policy that doesn't depend on having Israel as a dependable and well-armed ally in a coalition to contain Iran and its allies and satellites, the amount of pressure the US can credibly bring to bear upon the government of Israel is very limited, and Benjamin Netanyahu knows that very well.