Now Christian Nationalists are coming for equal marriage: campaign to overturn Obergefell

Myradyl Muse

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No Christianity involved with these folks, despite self-claimed declarations. Teachings of Jesus, as historically documented, are the polar opposite of these 'christians' values and behaviours. These folks are grievance-driven, hard core fundamentalist, prosperity-gospel religious bigots who bastardize the 'faith' to suit their greedy ends. No humility, compassion or love thy neighbour exists. The hypocrisy and blasphemy floors me.
 

Innula Zenovka

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No Christianity involved with these folks, despite self-claimed declarations. Teachings of Jesus, as historically documented, are the polar opposite of these 'christians' values and behaviours. These folks are grievance-driven, hard core fundamentalist, prosperity-gospel religious bigots who bastardize the 'faith' to suit their greedy ends. No humility, compassion or love thy neighbour exists. The hypocrisy and blasphemy floors me.
I've said this before, I know, but I'm never comfortable about deciding who is and who isn't a real Christian (an exercise that, historically, has tended to lead to one group of people who considered themselves, and were widely considered by others, to be real Christians torturing and executing other groups of people who equally sincerely considered themselves, and were widely considered by others. to be real Christians too).

Even in one denomination -- Roman Catholics -- there are plenty of people who are indubitably sincere Catholics and considered so to be by the Church whose understanding of Catholic doctrine leads them to radically different and violently opposed theological, social and political positions.

I think we mislead ourselves if we think Christians are necessarily the good guys, and anyone who isn't one of the good guys isn't a proper Christian, any more than are Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or anyone else necessarily good and pleasant people because of their religion.

To my mind, people's understanding of their faith is more influenced by what kind of people they are than vice versa.
 

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I've said this before, I know, but I'm never comfortable about deciding who is and who isn't a real Christian
Until Jesus returns and starts telling us otherwise, we're literally stuck with self-designation as the only way to accept who a Christian is.
 
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Jopsy Pendragon

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Absolute projection.

And as time shows again and again, every god damned accusation from those fucking knuckle dragging group think conservative culture warriors is a confession.

What an unsurprisingly toxic byproduct of a craven/damaged brain fermented too long in a culture of "don''t look here! Our self aggrandizing fake pious predators never abuse the trust, lack of accountability, secrecy, solidarity and power they undeserving wield in our community to harm children and wives... Never! The sinful/abusive/immoral/pedos are.. uh... Over there!! Nothing to see here, and if there was, uh, Both Sides!! Both Sides and their side is worse because godlessness or something! Disagreement=persecution stop victimizing us, we gave you a sacrificial scapegoat! I'm right because I have faith, fuck facts"

/PreCoffeeRagingRantRawr
 

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Until Jesus returns and starts telling us otherwise, we're literally stuck with self-designation as the only way to accept who a Christian is.
Yes, but, Jesus told us whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. That doesn't translate, in any way, to classify, criticize, point out, attempt to educate, ostracize, work politically against, imprison, torture, maim, or kill. Someone sincerely following Christ's example and instruction will simply share, personally, and then let people live freely with their own decisions.
 

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I think we mislead ourselves if we think Christians are necessarily the good guys, and anyone who isn't one of the good guys isn't a proper Christian, any more than are Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs or anyone else necessarily good and pleasant people because of their religion.

To my mind, people's understanding of their faith is more influenced by what kind of people they are than vice versa.
I worked on a documentary about the Neshoba County Murders (aka Mississippi Burning, but people in Neshoba county were not generally happy with the movie ("All the black people are either scared or singing.")). The Freedom Summer activists trying to secure voting rights used local churches to help organize. The Ku Klux Klan chapter that killed Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman organized in a church, with the pastor in charge of planning. I have seen the best and worst of humanity come out of churches.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I worked on a documentary about the Neshoba County Murders (aka Mississippi Burning, but people in Neshoba county were not generally happy with the movie ("All the black people are either scared or singing.")). The Freedom Summer activists trying to secure voting rights used local churches to help organize. The Ku Klux Klan chapter that killed Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman organized in a church, with the pastor in charge of planning. I have seen the best and worst of humanity come out of churches.
Shortly after Columbus returned for the first time from the Carribbean, a heated debate began in the Catholic church about the morality of slavery and colonial exploitation in the Americas, which was later carried on (rather more quietly) among English, Dutch and French protestants after they started colonising the new world, too.

Meanwhile Europe suffered devastating wars of religion, or more accurately religious-political ideology.

All the participants, I'm sure, were pretty much convinced Jesus would have agreed with their particular point of view had he been available to ask.
 

Jopsy Pendragon

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Until Jesus returns and starts telling us otherwise, we're literally stuck with self-designation as the only way to accept who a Christian is.
Official records don't have him saying anything to which he could say something 'otherwise' to about same sex relations. At all. And given that he basically 'Fulfilled the Law' of the old testament (whatever the fuck that really means) and created a 'new covenant', which either does or doesn't supplant the prior covenant... I swear, the whole 'from a contradiction, anything follows' it's as if the bible were written to allow anyone to claim it supports *anything*. Including slavery and lynching.

Other than the implication that Jesus cured a centurian's 'pais' sight unseen [(pais from Greek, meaning "child," "boy," or "servant") historically refers to a young attendant, slave, or son in ancient Greek contexts, often denoting someone subordinate.] which given what's known about historic greek culture cultural norms, that role could very well have been a sexual one as well.

And Jesus's singling out his love for 'John the Apostle' telling treated Mary to treat him as her own son. As if the two were brothers, or perhaps more.

To any person with a shred of christ-like compassion, it seems clear that gays and transgender individuals would have been welcome at the table along with the sex workers and tax collectors.

And the pharisees claiming to know better would have their god damned tables flipped.

... if any of it were real at all. Which I doubt, but I like to insist that fictions remain internally consistent. ;)

/rawr_post_coffee_morning_rant
 

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Casey Pelous

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The Bible is a giant word salad that can be tweaked and twisted enough to be used to at least seem to justify anything imaginable in human behavior, so I tend to take folks' word for what club they are in. If you say you're a Christian, fine, you're a Christian. (It's not like I can check to see if they're behind on their dues or something ...) Then I'll make up my mind about Christianity based on its membership's behavior.

Spoiler alert: It ain't lookin' real good for Christianity.
 

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The Bible is a giant word salad that can be tweaked and twisted enough to be used to at least seem to justify anything imaginable in human behavior, so I tend to take folks' word for what club they are in. If you say you're a Christian, fine, you're a Christian. (It's not like I can check to see if they're behind on their dues or something ...) Then I'll make up my mind about Christianity based on its membership's behavior.

Spoiler alert: It ain't lookin' real good for Christianity.
Seems you share the same opinion of Christianity with Donald Trump.

 

Jopsy Pendragon

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The thing about official records is they don't tend to record all the important stuff, I guess.
"Important stuff" being anything that might undermine or limit the abuse of power accumulated by taking leadership roles in perpetuating, modifying and tailoring a popular movement into something entirely self-serving for those at the top and their benefactors.... just sayin.
 

Rose Karuna

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I downed a couple of bottles of Boone's Farms once in my younger years. There was much speaking with Christ that night.
Yep, and if it was anything like the time I did it, lots of throwing up the next morning and a hell of a headache for a damn week.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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If anyone's interested, this explains some of the reasons I'm dubious about dismissing Christian Nationalists (or Trump-supporting Evangelicals) as not being real Christians.


When Christians say that unethical actions or words are unchristian, they claim to be calling people back to “true” Christian principles. But in many cases, they are just defending Christians from their own mixed legacy—and thereby shoring up Christian nationalism and its conviction that Christians have a unique relationship to virtue and therefore a unique right to rule.
 
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Eh, the article makes some good points but I am not sure it quite gets the idea of calling Trump, or MAGA as being "un-christian."

Sure, there may be some insider types who push it in the way mentiomed in the article, but I think most people who say Trump is un-christian would say it about say, how he treats Ilhan Omar, and other examples there.

Its people who are not Christians, and more often, liberal athiestz, saying it so maybe the MAGA Christians willnsee how stupid they are for treating Trump as the second coming.

I think the core problem with what is presented in the article is it way underestimates just how many athiests there are saying these comments.

These people would be saying Trump was "un-Jewish" or "un-Muslim" or "un-Whayever" if there was a parrallell situation where such applied. Hell if he and MAGA were openly athiest and they pushed a strongly religious leaning agenda anyway, people would probably call them un-athiest.

People aren't really saying it for the effect of "Trump should be more Chrisrian", they are saying to say "Trump is a fucking hypocrite... again..." but un a manner that might (but probably won't) appeal to the MAGA Cult, who is heavily Christian. They will blow off calling him classless or a hypocrite or deplorable, etc.
 
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