Yay! Nobody Cares about Tickle Me Elmo Musk

Dakota Tebaldi

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I like the sentiment but this is another example of that whole legend-based-on-nothing thing.

Like, we don't have an actual list, right? Whether you think there never was one or you think it was covered up, either way we don't HAVE it, so we don't know anything about it. We don't know who's on it, or how many. Victims who have testified have only directly named like...what, three people, four? Only a handful at any rate. So when did we decide that there's hundreds of people on the list? Hundreds. Come on, that's just dumb!
 

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Betty Bowers didn't say there were hundreds of names on the list but that there were hundreds of clients. For an operation that went on for decades it's not credible that there were fewer than that.
 

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Link to Guardian article

Musk, the world’s richest person, has framed his SpaceX expansion plan as existential, crucial to the survival of the human race. One day in the not-so-distant future, he says, the development of SpaceX’s Starship rocket will culminate in his ultimate goal of colonizing the planet Mars.
I have to say that I've never understood the practicalities or economics of colonising Mars. In order to survive (literally) the colony will need full medical services in all specialties, stocked with a full range of medical equipment and medicines and anesthetics.

While the long-term plan may well be eventually to manufacture them locally, presumably in the meantime they'll all need to be shipped in from Earth. And even if and when the colony is able to manufacture its own pharmaceuticals (I shudder to think how many factories that involves) they'll need the raw materials.

How is all this to be paid for?
 

Innula Zenovka

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Betty Bowers didn't say there were hundreds of names on the list but that there were hundreds of clients. For an operation that went on for decades it's not credible that there were fewer than that.
Clients for what services, though? We know Epstein had plenty of clients for his tax avoidance and financial services companies, but I'm not sure that's the client list people have in mind.

Many of his clients enjoyed his hospitality, be it on his private island or one of his residences in the US. But I'm not sure it's safe to assume that hospitality extended to begin able to abuse the girls and young women Maxwell helped Epstein to recruit for his own gratification, even if the guests wanted to.

In some cases (e.g. Prince Andrew) it may well have done, but the assumption that Epstein and Maxwell were at the centre of a huge and well documented ring supplying young girls to rich pedophiles is not necessarily a safe or accurate one.
 

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I have to say that I've never understood the practicalities or economics of colonising Mars. In order to survive (literally) the colony will need full medical services in all specialties, stocked with a full range of medical equipment and medicines and anesthetics.
Science fiction has a lot to answer for in creating this myth of a Mars colony as a laudable goal, as a step in the colonization of space as humans spread through the solar system. And I say that as an ardent science-fiction reader.

In truth, any attempt for humans to live long-term outside Earth would require massive funneling of (already scarce) Earth resources to support every aspect of existence. That's even assuming humans CAN live in other environments for more than a few months without developing life-threatening damage. And for what? What is the payoff?
 

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Science fiction has a lot to answer for in creating this myth of a Mars colony as a laudable goal, as a step in the colonization of space as humans spread through the solar system. And I say that as an ardent science-fiction reader.

In truth, any attempt for humans to live long-term outside Earth would require massive funneling of (already scarce) Earth resources to support every aspect of existence. That's even assuming humans CAN live in other environments for more than a few months without developing life-threatening damage. And for what? What is the payoff?
One might have hoped hat these enthusiastic free market libertarian billionaires would have paid a bit more attention to Leonard E Reed's classic I, pencil, which discusses the role of the free market system in creating the complex supply chains necessary to make something as simple as a pencil, and thought about their implications for colonies whose very existence depends, at least in its early years or decades, on a centrally planned economy that is responsible for importing, at huge expense, all the raw materials and finished goods the colony needs.
 
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One might have hoped hat these enthusiastic free market libertarian billionaires would have paid a bit more attention to Leonard E Reed's classic I, pencil,
Or even read the history of early Western European settlements that tried to survive in the New World. Settlements that didn't have to worry about the lack of water, oxygen, plants & animals, building materials, gravity and atmospheric shielding from radiation.

European ships could sail for the New World on any schedule they chose, using rudimentary equipment for navigation, and reach their destination in one or two months. In contrast, travel to Mars requires intricate computations to coordinate travel between two planets that themselves are traveling through space, and the journey can take from seven to nine months. So you have to carry enough supplies to sustain a crew for 18 months (there and back) PLUS whatever supplies the colonists need between those trips. And when the supply ship misses a shipment? The whole venture fails immediately.
 

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One might have hoped hat these enthusiastic free market libertarian billionaires would have paid a bit more attention to Leonard E Reed's classic I, pencil, which discusses the role of the free market system in creating the complex supply chains necessary to make something as simple as a pencil, and thought about their implications for colonies whose very existence depends, at least in its early years or decades, on a centrally planned economy that is responsible for importing, at huge expense, all the raw materials and finished goods the colony needs.
The ultimate goal of the Mars boondoggle is, one must assume, to somehow convert Mars into a liveable planet. Given the mind-boggling costs involved, there's really only one scenario where that would be needed, and that's the Earth becoming ecologically uninhabitable. (Not that we aren't hard at work at achieving that ...)

I always liked Neil deGrasse Tyson's observation about that, which was along the lines of, "We have no idea how to turn Mars into a habitable planet -- and if we ever figured it out, we wouldn't need Mars. We'd just fix Earth with the same technology."

Really, I've heard 8-year-olds with far better thought-out ambitions -- but, then, they aren't billionaires with raging narcissism and a teeny peeny.

(Okay, I made up that last little bit....)
 

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If we're going to colonize space, we'll have to start by constructing sealed-off habitats suited for long-term survival.

And rather than putting them on the surface of Mars or the Moon, we'll put them in Earth's orbit.

Like, a bunch of interconnected O'Neill cylinders.

If we're manage to figure out how to sustain human life on those indefinitely, then we can take some of those O'Neill cylinders and turn them into an Aldrin cycler.

Once we've reached Mars, we'd start constructing more habitats in its orbit and only go down to the surface for scientific reasons and resource extraction because the space habitats will be so much more liveable.
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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OMG people talking about this sensibly! 💗

Science fiction has a lot to answer for in creating this myth of a Mars colony as a laudable goal, as a step in the colonization of space as humans spread through the solar system.
So much so that it's hard to overstate. A lot of futurists and others who are super optimistic about human space colonization always seem to have a weirdly misplaced belief that sci-fi writers have managed to solve most of the high-level technical stuff and any questions about the actual feasibility of those things are annoyances and fearmongering. Often we're talking about technologies that don't exist yet but would absolutely need to exist in order for any of this to work, yet there is a resistance to spending any serious discussion on whether they're even realistic.

Arguments about "inevitability" hold a lot of sway there. Planetary-scale "terraforming" technology, for instance, is simply a done deal. It WILL be invented. It WILL work. Stop thinking about it. Stop questioning it. It is inevitable. Just think about what fashion will be like on Mars.
 

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It WILL be invented. It WILL work. Stop thinking about it. Stop questioning it. It is inevitable. Just think about what fashion will be like on Mars.
The persistence of these fantasies speaks directly to our fear of death. That gibbering fear of death for oneself, the individual, is often blunted by extending ourselves through proxy: my legacy will live on, my children will live on, our species will on. To contemplate the death of our species -- vulnerable as we are on this one little planet -- is to face the implacability of death for ourselves without that handy avatar of an eternal wave of humanity throughout the rest of time.

It's also, most unfortunately, threaded into our view of eternal consumption of limitless resources. If we eat through this planet, we'll simply move on to the next and the next. The universe is infinite, so we can just keep on building all our lovely technological toys without guilt because there will always be a source to draw from; we don't need to stay "stop!" and become a better steward of what we have now (and can never replace). And I say that as someone who bought a new computer and a new iPhone over the past year. The blood of our planet is on my hands.
 

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Meanwhile, we can't even prevent our astronauts' bodies from becoming so feeble from a few months of zero gravity that they can't walk when they return to Earth. That, despite logging hour after hour of weight-lifting, cycling, and running on the treadmill in the ISS.

Months.

Mars is a roughly three-year round trip by the time you hang out there and wait for the planets to get in position for a fuel-efficient (read: possible vs. impossible) route. SpaceX's plan is to launch human missions in the 2030's.

:rolleyes:
 

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Meanwhile, we can't even prevent our astronauts' bodies from becoming so feeble from a few months of zero gravity that they can't walk when they return to Earth. That, despite logging hour after hour of weight-lifting, cycling, and running on the treadmill in the ISS.

Months.

Mars is a roughly three-year round trip by the time you hang out there and wait for the planets to get in position for a fuel-efficient (read: possible vs. impossible) route. SpaceX's plan is to launch human missions in the 2030's.

:rolleyes:
And in a rocket ship that looks like it was designed by science fiction writers in the 1950s.

Elon has said (...ugh...) they plan to spin the rocket on its journey to generate pseudo-gravity through centrifugal force. To simulate the gravity of Mars (1/3rd of Earth), Starship needs to rotate 8 times a minute (my math could be wrong, but it'll be something like that). Ignoring all the engineering and logistical issues involved with this idea, experiments in the 1960s showed that rotation rates above 3-4 RPM might be difficult for us to adapt to. In something with a mere 15 foot radius like Starship, people's heads, when standing, would experience far less gravity than their feet will!
 

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One might have hoped hat these enthusiastic free market libertarian billionaires would have paid a bit more attention to Leonard E Reed's classic I, pencil, which discusses the role of the free market system in creating the complex supply chains necessary to make something as simple as a pencil, and thought about their implications for colonies whose very existence depends, at least in its early years or decades, on a centrally planned economy that is responsible for importing, at huge expense, all the raw materials and finished goods the colony needs.
Now now, you know many of them have barely read anything about economics. They just know just enough libertarian theory to think they know they don't need to pay taxes.

People like Musk and Bezos have a lot of motivation to believe the myth that innovation is driven by a small, super elite class of geniuses, rather than the much more complex reality.

As for the practicalities of the Mars Colony: It's just a basic fact that we are not anywhere close to having the level of technology needed to make this practical. Many things are possible long before we have the ability to make it cost effective. A Mars Colony would be the biggest money pit in history. I suspect even Musk's crazy ass knows this and mostly talks about it to build "hype" for himself among his idiot followers.
 

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Every SciFi story with colonization
And in a rocket ship that looks like it was designed by science fiction writers in the 1950s.

Elon has said (...ugh...) they plan to spin the rocket on its journey to generate pseudo-gravity through centrifugal force. To simulate the gravity of Mars (1/3rd of Earth), Starship needs to rotate 8 times a minute (my math could be wrong, but it'll be something like that). Ignoring all the engineering and logistical issues involved with this idea, experiments in the 1960s showed that rotation rates above 3-4 RPM might be difficult for us to adapt to. In something with a mere 15 foot radius like Starship, people's heads, when standing, would experience far less gravity than their feet will!
I eecall reading a concept of using a teather between a crew capsule and a supply capsule so it would spin on a much longer radius. I don't remember if that was the same article that proposed using tanks of nutrient soup to protect the crew from radiation in transit by putting them around the quarters.
 

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I eecall reading a concept of using a teather between a crew capsule and a supply capsule so it would spin on a much longer radius. I don't remember if that was the same article that proposed using tanks of nutrient soup to protect the crew from radiation in transit by putting them around the quarters.
SpaceX to Mars by the 2030s. Yeah, that'll be happening!