Nobody Cares about History

Argent Stonecutter

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At the very least it means they don't have a problem with there being nine planets,
You must be deliberately misinterpreting this, because I honestly can not believe you are being serious about this sentence. If you have actually been paying ANY attention to this whole thing you already know it's not "nine planets" that triggered them, it was the prospect of kids not being able to memorize the names of several hundred planets, not NINE fucking planets. They LITERALLY made that argument as a reason for holding the meeting. Please try to think about the arguments you are making.


I don't get where you're getting that "no planetologists" were involved in the procedural vote.
The IAU convention is not primarily a planetological convention, and there were very few planetologists present at the main convention. The meeting was held after the main sessions were all over, and none of the attendees who happened to be planetologists were still around for the meeting. There were several complaints *by* planetologists after the meeting about this.
 
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They LITERALLY made that argument as a reason for holding the meeting. Please try to think about the arguments you are making.
Dakota apparently forgot about our "discussions" on this back on SLU, when he believed that argument to be an acceptable if not cogent one.
 

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I'm not sober enough to completely understand this argument but I really don't feel that the exact definition of "planet" is actually that important scientifically. It's kind of like arguing exactly when a "hill" becomes a "mountain." It's a pretty arbitrary distinction that has very little practical use. It doesn't seem like whether or not an object is a "planet" is directly related to whether or not we'd want to go there if we could, so who cares?
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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You must be deliberately misinterpreting this, because I honestly can not believe you are being serious about this sentence. If you have actually been paying ANY attention to this whole thing you already know it's not "nine planets" that triggered them, it was the prospect of kids not being able to memorize the names of several hundred planets, not NINE fucking planets. They LITERALLY made that argument as a reason for holding the meeting. Please try to think about the arguments you are making.
All right so, the thing you posted yesterday had a headline that said "Planet Decision That Booted Out Pluto is Rooted in Folklore, Astrology, Study Suggests", and this is (part of) the argument it made supporting that:

Also at play, according to the study, was the effect of another type of publication about planets that had become extremely popular in the preceding two centuries —almanacs.

These annual books often contain information such as weather predictions that rely on astrological factors, such as planetary position, which requires an orderly, limited number of planets to make predictions.

“We found that there were enough almanacs being sold in England and in the United States that every household could get one copy every year,” Metzger says.

Even though the popularity of almanacs had declined by the time of planetary science neglect, their impact remained.

“This was a key period in history, when the public accepted that the Earth orbits the Sun instead of the other way around, and they combined this great scientific insight with a definition of planets that came from astrology,” Metzger says.

This is when astrological views, like that moons, or satellites, are not planets, crept into scientific literature, Metzger says.

“This might seem like a small change, but it undermined the central idea about planets that had been passed down from Galileo,” Metzger says. “Planets were no longer defined by virtue of being complex, with active geology and the potential for life and civilization. Instead, they were defined by virtue of being simple, following certain idealized paths around the Sun.”

Metzger says this continued until the 1960s when missions into space reignited interest and research into planets and objects in the solar system.

During this period of greater discovery, some scientists began using the geophysical definition proposed by Galileo again in scientific literature, while others dismissed moons and many other planetary objects as being less than planets, thereby holding onto the belief that there are a limited number of planets in the solar system.

It was this latter belief that surfaced when the IAU decided to vote on the definition in 2006, the researcher says.
The argument is that because Farmers' Almanacs were popular over 100 years ago, astronomers (who were born after they had declined in popularity) have inherited a hang-up on there needing to be only so many planets to keep the solar system "orderly", and the effect of that is that moons and other small critters in the solar system are considered "less than" planets.

I think that's a purely semantic argument. For one thing, the problem scientifically costs nothing; considering moons moons and not planets has not gotten in the way of any actual scientific work or discoveries at all. We have sent probes and robots to moons, we have studied them extensively and still do, not a single person ever was like "Hmmm, should we really be spending all these resources studying a mere MOON?". I think it's actually the people making this argument who are investing the term "planet" with some higher-than-scientific meaning. Moons being "less than" planets? Nobody except maybe these people infers that. Everyone else just thinks moons are smaller than planets - and maybe smaller enough to justify their own category. Of course that doesn't mean they're less important.

You're right that people at least mentioned during the debate phase at the IAU meeting the whole thing about school kids and memorizing planet names. It doesn't appear in the resolution anywhere, but it WAS talked about at the meeting. But where it's not talked about much is in that article you posted. In fact this is the only mention of it:

“I’ve always been bothered by the argument to preserve the eight-planet solar system model for the sake of easy memorization for school children,” she says. “Imagine how much more perspective they’d have if they had a full understanding of the diversity of the universe and our place in it? We are not one of eight planets, we are one of upwards of 200.”
That's it. It's a single line in the whole article. Compare that to how much time is spent on the "astrology/there needs to be a limited number of planets" argument. So you can't say the school thing is the main concern of the article and the astrology stuff is just a distraction, like a LOT of time is spent on it. Maybe it's the least important part to YOU but it's the whole headline and the bulk of the article, and the article is what I've been arguing against.

The IAU convention is not primarily a planetological convention, and there were very few planetologists present at the main convention. The meeting was held after the main sessions were all over, and none of the attendees who happened to be planetologists were still around for the meeting. There were several complaints *by* planetologists after the meeting about this.
I still haven't seen any like lists of the voters or anything that could prove any of that; but even so, that's not really the IAU's fault. It was a multi-day meeting just like all the general assembly meetings, and everyone knew well in advance that all the resolution voting would be done on the last day, just like it always was. Yeah a lot of planetary scientists had gone home by then, but a lot of all the other types of astronomers had gone home by then too. Planetologists weren't excluded, they had every opportunity to be part of the process at all levels, including the final vote. I understand if a lot of them regret not taking it, but that's kind of the brakes, they can't just not hold the vote because particular members didn't stick around for it.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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I'm not sober enough to completely understand this argument but I really don't feel that the exact definition of "planet" is actually that important scientifically.
Indeed. The whole process was completely stupid.

The argument is that because Farmers' Almanacs were popular over 100 years ago, astronomers (who were born after they had declined in popularity) have inherited a hang-up on there needing to be only so many planets to keep the solar system "orderly", and the effect of that is that moons and other small critters in the solar system are considered "less than" planets.
That actually came up, too.

I think that's a purely semantic argument. For one thing, the problem scientifically costs nothing; considering moons moons and not planets has not gotten in the way of any actual scientific work or discoveries at all.
What are you talking about? This doesn't have anything to do with moons. This has to do with the fact that Ceres, Pallas, and Juno at least should probably be considered planets, and then there's already dozens of transplutonian planets.

But where it's not talked about much is in that article you posted.
I posted two articles. This time. I've posted dozens more in the past. If these articles are all you have to go on why are you even discussing this? You're obviously not on top of the subject.

Planetologists weren't excluded, they had every opportunity to be part of the process at all levels, including the final vote. I understand if a lot of them regret not taking it, but that's kind of the brakes,
"breaks"

First, you're now accusing me of suggesting that there was some kind of conspiracy to exclude planetologists. All I'm saying is that the results of the meeting are suspect because there were no members of the group that actually had the specific expertise to make any decision present. It doesn't matter why.

they can't just not hold the vote because particular members didn't stick around for it.
Sure they can.

They didn't need to hold the meeting at all.

There was no scientific reason to hold it.

It was purely a public relations thing initiated by people uncomfortable with there being hundreds of planets. It was a farce from the word go and it has been given way too much credence. It's like Bitcoin or "AI".
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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What are you talking about? This doesn't have anything to do with moons. This has to do with the fact that Ceres, Pallas, and Juno at least should probably be considered planets, and then there's already dozens of transplutonian planets.
Dude...again, from the article YOU posted:

Study co-author, Charlene E. Detelich, a geologist and researcher with the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, agrees. She studies the tectonics of icy planets in the outer solar system, specifically Jupiter’s satellite Europa.

“For the term planet, myself and most planetary scientists consider round icy moons to be planets,” Detelich says. “They all have active geologic processes that are driven by a variety of internal processes, as does any world with enough mass to reach hydrostatic equilibrium. As a geologist, it is immensely more useful to divide planets by their intrinsic characteristics than by their orbital dynamics.”
I posted two articles. This time. I've posted dozens more in the past. If these articles are all you have to go on why are you even discussing this? You're obviously not on top of the subject.
They're what you posted in this thread. Why would I be talking in here about something you posted somewhere else years ago? And why are you getting so upset about this - I'm arguing with the article, not you.

Well, I'm not TRYING to argue with YOU...

They didn't need to hold the meeting at all.

There was no scientific reason to hold it.
It was the annual IAU general assembly. They have one every year, it wasn't a special meeting called just to vote on that resolution. The planet-definition resolution wasn't even the only one voted on in that session, it was just another resolution that happened to be voted on at that year's conference.
 
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Kamilah Hauptmann

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Remembering the New Coke cola wars.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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Dude...again, from the article YOU posted:
So basically you don't know anything about this except that article?

I'm not defending that article. I don't care about that article, in particular. It's just another additional straw on the back of a camel that's so dead I don't know why you're trying to prop it up. I've already pointed this out multiple times. If all you want to talk about is that article you ran out of subject matter many messages ago.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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So basically you don't know anything about this except that article?

I'm not defending that article. I don't care about that article, in particular. It's just another additional straw on the back of a camel that's so dead I don't know why you're trying to prop it up. I've already pointed this out multiple times. If all you want to talk about is that article you ran out of subject matter many messages ago.
Okay; you posted it, but not because you care about what's in it. Fine, I guess?

Do you wanna talk about the other one you posted or nah? Compared to the first one it's really short and not as interesting. I think Stern's argument that scientists voting on what name to give something harms science and makes it look political in the public eye is also bad, but it's not "they did it for subconscious astrology reasons" bad.
 

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Arguing with Argent is like sticking a toilet plunger on your face and giving er hell.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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Argent's not wrong. We just don't have the same opinion about this thing. <3
 
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Kamilah Hauptmann

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Toilet plunger on face still applies. 🤪
 

Argent Stonecutter

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Science isn't a matter of opinion. That's how you end up with a room full of deep field astronomers voting on a matter of planetary science.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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Science isn't a matter of opinion. That's how you end up with a room full of deep field astronomers voting on a matter of planetary science.
lol

What to name something IS a matter of opinion. Names are made up by people; people can name things whatever they want, and can choose whatever criteria they want for a particular name; it IS arbitrary. There actually is no scientific reason that something can't be categorized based on its orbital characteristics; they're not vibes, they are verifiable physical traits that can be measured. Sure some don't think planets should be categorized that way, but that very much is a matter of opinion that does not impact the science. It's not an invalid opinion, but it's an opinion - unlike say a hypothesis, which is either correct or is not.

Nobody has a problem with rogue planets being categorized as rogue planets. Nobody has a problem with exoplanets being categorized as exoplanets. If stars can be sub-categorized as giants and dwarf stars, then planetary bodies can be sub-categorized as planets and dwarf planets.
 
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lol

What to name something IS a matter of opinion. Names are made up by people; people can name things whatever they want, and can choose whatever criteria they want for a particular name; it IS arbitrary.
Wikipedia has this to say about distinctions between colors -

Argent versus white

Arthur Charles Fox-Davies argued in his book The Art of Heraldry that, though extremely rare, the colour white existed as an independent tincture in heraldry separate from argent. He bases this in part on the "white labels" used to differentiate the arms of members of the British royal family. However, it has been argued that these could be regarded as "white labels proper", thus rendering white not a heraldic tincture.[1]
 

Argent Stonecutter

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Nobody has a problem with rogue planets being categorized as rogue planets. Nobody has a problem with exoplanets being categorized as exoplanets. If stars can be sub-categorized as giants and dwarf stars, then planetary bodies can be sub-categorized as planets and dwarf planets.
If they were going to take that tack, there are only four full sized planets in the solar system, the rest are dwarfs.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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There's a lot more to the history of St Nicholas, the sometime bishop of Myra, than we think.
 
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Macabre comes to mind.

Hundreds of years ago, someone in the Netherlands concluded that the best way to fill the gaps in their floor was not with tiles, but with bones.

Municipal archaeologists working in the historical center of the Dutch city of Alkmaar have uncovered a historic floor partially tiled with animal bones. This rare feature, announced in a December 13 municipal statement, has only ever been documented in the province of North Holland, usually in 15th-century floors.

“We were very happy to have the opportunity to see this bone floor with our own eyes. It is always a privilege to uncover something from a bygone era and add new information to the history of Alkmaar,” Nancy de Jong, an Alkmaar municipal archaeologist, said in the statement.
Archaeologists have seen this sort of thing before, having previously discovered similar bone features in floors in Hoorn, Enkhuizen, and Edam, with the Hoorn floor displaying a particularly similar pattern. Experts are now wondering whether this may have been a common 15th-century flooring solution or design in the Netherlands.
 

Innula Zenovka

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