#JAILTOTHECHIEF- Shit Just Got Real

[Kara Spengler]

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but if health concerns can postpone elections, it seems reasonable to me that health concerns can close state borders.

The Texas governor has already been limiting travel from Louisiana, e.g., Texas tightens rules on neighboring Louisiana over COVID-19 I haven't heard of any challenges to these policies. At least they haven't made the news, and I think they would.

This issue would be an example of assuming that anything associated with what comes out of Trump's mouth must be all bullshit. Trump's version of the idea is always going to be highly suspect, but there probably are qualified people who have already considered these kinds of issues. I'd like to hear what they have to say.

ETA: I vaguely remember embargoes on California produce because of the Mediterranean fruit fly. That was a long time ago.

I do not just assume it but take it as axiomatic. While I would need to look it up I can not THINK of a time the commerce clause has been tested like this. Of course, the two states in states of emergency and/or states of medical emergency would make it sound reasonable but as everyone knows reasonableness and the law do not always correspond. There are always various lawsuits winding their way through the courts over covid19 cases, even though many will probably collide with sovereign immunity and international sovereign immunity of some sort.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but if health concerns can postpone elections, it seems reasonable to me that health concerns can close state borders.

The Texas governor has already been limiting travel from Louisiana, e.g., Texas tightens rules on neighboring Louisiana over COVID-19 I haven't heard of any challenges to these policies. At least they haven't made the news, and I think they would.

According to that link, this is what Gov. Greg Abbott has actually done,

Just two days after Texas began requiring airline passengers from New Orleans to comply with a two-week quarantine, Abbott said state troopers will now also patrol highway entry points at the Louisiana border and require “everyone stopped" in those cars to also self-isolate. Abbott's order requires drivers to fill out a form listing where they will quarantine in Texas. But the extent of how Texas troopers would enforce the order on the state line was not immediately clear.

I'd make two points about this:

• Requiring people to comply with local Texas law -- in this case, the law concerning quarantine -- while they're in Texas isn't the same as limiting travel into or through Texas.
• However, in a case where he does want to limit travel, by stopping people on the state border to inform them of the quarantine, it's "not immediately clear" what lawful authority the state troopers would have to stop drivers.

 

[Kara Spengler]

According to that link, this is what Gov. Greg Abbott has actually done,

I'd make two points about this:

• Requiring people to comply with local Texas law -- in this case, the law concerning quarantine -- while they're in Texas isn't the same as limiting travel into or through Texas.
• However, in a case where he does want to limit travel, by stopping people on the state border to inform them of the quarantine, it's "not immediately clear" what lawful authority the state troopers would have to stop drivers.

Hmm, that might go to the supreme court as it is a fine line between restricting commerce and having a local law that happens to restrict it. Maybe if the law were federal and applied to both states, but donnie would not want to get his hands dirty.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Hmm, that might go to the supreme court as it is a fine line between restricting commerce and having a local law that happens to restrict it. Maybe if the law were federal and applied to both states, but donnie would not want to get his hands dirty.

This discussion, though, assumes Trump's words actually meant anything, which I rather doubt -- only a day or so, remember, he was claiming he had the power to order governors to lift lockdown orders they'd imposed, and there's no reason to suspect these latest comments are any less fanciful.

Imagine this: a resident of Texas visits New Orleans and develops symptoms of Covid-19 while he's there.

While certainly Texas can require him to go into quarantine when he arrives home, can there really be a legal way for Texas to stop him returning from Louisiana to his own home and family?

 

[Kara Spengler]

This discussion, though, assumes Trump's words actually meant anything, which I rather doubt -- only a day or so, remember, he was claiming he had the power to order governors to lift lockdown orders they'd imposed, and there's no reason to suspect these latest comments are any less fanciful.

Imagine this: a resident of Texas visits New Orleans and develops symptoms of Covid-19 while he's there.

While certainly Texas can require him to go into quarantine when he arrives home, can there really be a legal way for Texas to stop him returning from Louisiana to his own home and family?

Right, I meant the only way I could maybe see it working is if it were a federal law (maybe as part of a stillnotissued federal disaster order) but even then someone would challenge it on constitutional grounds.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Considering when our idiot of a Governor tried to limit people coming in from Louisiana and NY, he was told he couldn't? That it doesn't suddenly become allowable to do just that.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Turnbull recounts infamous phone call with Trump

Mr Turnbull also reveals a conversation with Barack Obama in the White House in January 2016 when the then-president dismissed the chances of Mr Trump winning the presidential election in November that year.

“Don’t worry, Malcolm. The American people will never elect a lunatic to sit in this office,” Mr Obama is reported as saying in Mr Turnbull’s new book, A Bigger Picture.

Ah, but they did.

Yet the conflict was smoothed over when Mr Turnbull flew to New York in May 2017 to meet Mr Trump at a ceremony to commemorate the Battle of the Coral Sea, where the influence of News Corp chairman Rupert Murdoch was also apparent. “When Trump arrived, he was accompanied by [former New York mayor] Rudy Giuliani and Rupert Murdoch,” Mr Turnbull writes.

Mmm..hmm.

As French President Emmanuel Macron listened, Mr Turnbull told Mr Trump – “wearily” – that the refugees were not terrorists. “Oh, yes, they are,” Mr Trump replied, in Mr Turnbull's account. “They are the worst, and that fool Obama – the worst president EVER – agreed to take them to America. Can you believe that? Would you take them, Emmanuel?”

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

US intelligence agencies already alerted the Trump administration as well Israel and the NATO about the coronavirus outbreak in China in November 2019 according to the recherches of an Israeli TV station. Back then China kept that outbreak secret, so it was no public knowledge then.

The Trump administration was not interested in this report back then.

US alerted Israel, NATO to disease outbreak in China in November — TV report

 

[Innula Zenovka]

And in the UK

‘Dangerous’ conspiracy theories could spark wave of Islamophobic attacks when lockdown lifts, report warns

Exclusive: Report raises concern that online hate could translate into attacks when restrictions lift

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Sovereignty]

Hmm, that might go to the supreme court as it is a fine line between restricting commerce and having a local law that happens to restrict it. Maybe if the law were federal and applied to both states, but donnie would not want to get his hands dirty.

The government has legal right to quarantine people. That's been demonstrated time and again. I remember watching a news story some years ago about someone put in indefiinite solitary confinement because they had drug resistant tuberculosis. They had committed no crime, broken no laws.

What Innula points out in the article is old news here. I just threw the article out, throw-down documentation. Read it at your leisure.

Anyone suing would have to prove that these powers are being abused in some way, I would guess. The point is that closing borders between states is not so far fetched. It does not necessarily require extraordinary measures, and Trump talking about it, to me, amounts to saying the sky is blue. There might be situations where it in fact makes sense, perhaps down the line where things have reopened and we have excellent testing (doubtful) but there is an outbreak in one specific locality. At the moment Trump is just shoving shit up our noses.
ETA: added commas to remove ambiguity

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The government has legal right to quarantine people. That's been demonstrated time and again. I remember watching a news story some years ago about someone put in indefiinite solitary confinement because they had drug resistant tuberculosis. They had committed no crime, broken no laws.

What Innula points out in the article is old news here. I just threw the article out, throw-down documentation. Read it at your leisure.

Anyone suing would have to prove that these powers are being abused in some way, I would guess. The point is that closing borders between states is not so far fetched. It does not necessarily require extraordinary measures, and Trump talking about it, to me, amounts to saying the sky is blue. There might be situations where it in fact makes sense, perhaps down the line where things have reopened and we have excellent testing (doubtful) but there is an outbreak in one specific locality. At the moment Trump is just shoving shit up our noses.
ETA: added commas to remove ambiguity

Whether or not the government (state or federal) has the right to quarantine anyone isn't the issue -- they do, at least under certain circumstances.

However, I thought the question was whether either state or national government has the power to regulate normal travel between particular US states, in the way that a country may regulate travel to and from other countries.

 

[Sovereignty]

Whether or not the government (state or federal) has the right to quarantine anyone isn't the issue -- they do, at least under certain circumstances.

However, I thought the question was whether either state or national government has the power to regulate normal travel between particular US states, in the way that a country may regulate travel to and from other countries.

I think the "between the states" phrase is a red herring introduced by Closing Borders Trump in order to create the dramatic image of pitting states against states.

I remember trucks being stopped for produce inspections to contain medfly outbreaks. That was regulating otherwise normal travel. If authorities can regulate commerce with medflies, I'd think they can do the same with COVID-19.

I also remember highways being closed for safety reasons, like a gas well blowout that started a fire which burned for weeks next to an interstate highway.

Authorities already imprison people for controlling disease. The fact that someone is travelling would be pretty much irrelevant. Just imagine someone claiming, "Oh, I'm traveling, so you can't quarantine me!" That's absurd--if the government has a valid reason for quarantining in the first place. If their reason is just that someone lives in another state, that would not pass muster I think. If the criterion is that someone is coming from some area and therefore poses a threat to the public's well being, it may well pass muster.

Of course, mass incarceration would never be a practical option. I think they would just close the road. It seems like a reasonable alternative--again, if there is a valid reason to be quarantining people in the first place.

I remember having to get a TB test to go to college. My mother had to get one in order to teach. Of course, they tested everyone. The government at large has broad powers regarding health and safety. We have people refusing to get vaccines and local politicians have shrunk back in fear. I think the local governments would be on solid legal ground. It's the political ground that's treacherous.

But I am not a lawyer!

 

[Tracer]

Gov. Sununu insists that he does not have the ability to close the NH border. Whether this is true or whether he is saying that to shut up the people who are pressuring him to do so, I don't know. There are signs set up telling visitors to quarantine themselves, but AFAIK, there's no way to enforce that. The beaches are closed and hotels/motels are closed except for healthcare workers etc.

NH is something of a special case, since we are a low population state and a tourism destination that is right across the border from the Boston area, which is a COVID hot spot. My town probably triples in population in the summer,and that's not counting the day-trippers.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I think the "between the states" phrase is a red herring introduced by Closing Borders Trump in order to create the dramatic image of pitting states against states.

I remember trucks being stopped for produce inspections to contain medfly outbreaks. That was regulating otherwise normal travel. If authorities can regulate commerce with medflies, I'd think they can do the same with COVID-19.

I also remember highways being closed for safety reasons, like a gas well blowout that started a fire which burned for weeks next to an interstate highway.

Authorities already imprison people for controlling disease. The fact that someone is travelling would be pretty much irrelevant. Just imagine someone claiming, "Oh, I'm traveling, so you can't quarantine me!" That's absurd--if the government has a valid reason for quarantining in the first place. If their reason is just that someone lives in another state, that would not pass muster I think. If the criterion is that someone is coming from some area and therefore poses a threat to the public's well being, it may well pass muster.

Of course, mass incarceration would never be a practical option. I think they would just close the road. It seems like a reasonable alternative--again, if there is a valid reason to be quarantining people in the first place.

I remember having to get a TB test to go to college. My mother had to get one in order to teach. Of course, they tested everyone. The government at large has broad powers regarding health and safety. We have people refusing to get vaccines and local politicians have shrunk back in fear. I think the local governments would be on solid legal ground. It's the political ground that's treacherous.

But I am not a lawyer!

Red herring or not, he did float the idea, only to backtrack, of closing off travel between the rest of the US and New York, Connecticut and New Jersey:


That is, he was talking about quarantining these three states off from the rest of the US, and I was questioning whether he has the power to do that.

There's some interesting legal and historical background to the question here

Fact Check: A Blanket National Quarantine Is Likely Not Legal

President Trump floated ordering a quarantine in the Northeast, and there are calls for a national stay-at-home order. But the president's powers are limited.

www.npr.org

 

[Sovereignty]

Red herring or not, he did float the idea, only to backtrack, of closing off travel between the rest of the US and New York, Connecticut and New Jersey:


That is, he was talking about quarantining these three states off from the rest of the US, and I was questioning whether he has the power to do that.

There's some interesting legal and historical background to the question here

Fact Check: A Blanket National Quarantine Is Likely Not Legal

President Trump floated ordering a quarantine in the Northeast, and there are calls for a national stay-at-home order. But the president's powers are limited.

www.npr.org

That's an interesting article.

It sounds like most of the legal authority rests with states. I remember Gov. Cuomo citing the US constitution in a briefing and saying he has the power to reopen New York state, not Trump. He was quite emphatic.

Quarantines under the Public Health Service Act sound like an anachronism. My guess is it went in the law because lawmakers remembered how people acted before and wanted to expressly take power away from mobs. Now we have a mob of one. I suppose Trump could try to impose a quarantine, but good luck enforcing it.

Cuomo often harps on the idea that he has no power to enforce social distancing. There is no stay at home order unless the people of New York state make it a fait accompli. In Cuomo's view, the order works because he has credibility. He values that credibility highly.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Whether or not the government (state or federal) has the right to quarantine anyone isn't the issue -- they do, at least under certain circumstances.

However, I thought the question was whether either state or national government has the power to regulate normal travel between particular US states, in the way that a country may regulate travel to and from other countries.

Exactly. I am sure eventually (or already) someone will fall under that order that decides to sue and eventually the suit will be kicked up to the supreme court.

 

[Kara Spengler]

I think the "between the states" phrase is a red herring introduced by Closing Borders Trump in order to create the dramatic image of pitting states against states.

I remember trucks being stopped for produce inspections to contain medfly outbreaks. That was regulating otherwise normal travel. If authorities can regulate commerce with medflies, I'd think they can do the same with COVID-19.

I also remember highways being closed for safety reasons, like a gas well blowout that started a fire which burned for weeks next to an interstate highway.

Authorities already imprison people for controlling disease. The fact that someone is travelling would be pretty much irrelevant. Just imagine someone claiming, "Oh, I'm traveling, so you can't quarantine me!" That's absurd--if the government has a valid reason for quarantining in the first place. If their reason is just that someone lives in another state, that would not pass muster I think. If the criterion is that someone is coming from some area and therefore poses a threat to the public's well being, it may well pass muster.

Of course, mass incarceration would never be a practical option. I think they would just close the road. It seems like a reasonable alternative--again, if there is a valid reason to be quarantining people in the first place.

I remember having to get a TB test to go to college. My mother had to get one in order to teach. Of course, they tested everyone. The government at large has broad powers regarding health and safety. We have people refusing to get vaccines and local politicians have shrunk back in fear. I think the local governments would be on solid legal ground. It's the political ground that's treacherous.

But I am not a lawyer!

The cases like truck inspections also applied to residents of the state so it was not specifically targetting interstate commerce. Looking out for borders and out-of-state plates directly goes after interstate commerce only by definition.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Gov. Sununu insists that he does not have the ability to close the NH border. Whether this is true or whether he is saying that to shut up the people who are pressuring him to do so, I don't know. There are signs set up telling visitors to quarantine themselves, but AFAIK, there's no way to enforce that. The beaches are closed and hotels/motels are closed except for healthcare workers etc.

NH is something of a special case, since we are a low population state and a tourism destination that is right across the border from the Boston area, which is a COVID hot spot. My town probably triples in population in the summer,and that's not counting the day-trippers.

Also remember all the state liquor stores near the mass border.

 

[Romana]

The King of Ventilators.

Trump calls US the ‘King of Ventilators’ as governors plead for aid

President Trump on Sunday declared that the US is the “King of Ventilators” and said he is “right on testing” the way he was “right” about the breathing devices.…

nypost.com

 

[Tracer]

Also remember all the state liquor stores near the mass border.

That too, and we don't have sales tax so people come over the border to shop here in general.