#IMP45CH #LOCKHIMUP

[Free]

Quite simple: Hillary Clinton is as popular as an athlete's foot. I've not yet so far met an American who really likes her.

Making things clear so this doesn't pop up again: I really like her. So now you've met one.

 

[Sunshine Carami]

hate to say this but it is the media. If you look at her actual qualifications, she is amazing. She is very intelligent, has extensive experience in government, and is genuinely religious (teaching Sunday school). She ticks a lot of boxes. But she is female, and too smart. What we heard is different. I preferred Bernie because he was more inline with my beliefs, but had no issue voting for Hillary. She was damn qualified.

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

I did vote for her in the primaries. I wanted Bernie's domestic policies for sure but I had more confidence in Hillary on the world stage. And ever since she tried to fix health care for us I've thought her heart has been in the right place. Plus I REALLY wanted a woman president. Maybe a woman right on the heals of Obama was too much to hope for. That's right. It's about me.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

M I S O G Y N Y. Yes, also the decades-long smear campaigns against the Clintons were a factor, but white supremacy and misogyny are bedfellows. I understand that for some reason many people think it just can’t be that simple, but it really, really is.

I take the point, though insofar as white supremacy and misogyny are bedfellows, presumably the white supremacists wouldn't have voted for Obama in either election he won. It's the voters who didn't mind voting for a black man as president but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a white woman who would have helped defeat her.

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

I take the point, though insofar as white supremacy and misogyny are bedfellows, presumably the white supremacists wouldn't have voted for Obama in either election he won. It's the voters who didn't mind voting for a black man as president but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a white woman who would have helped defeat her.

Maybe voting for a black man (with smarts and charisma) made them feel good about themselves but the prospect of of a member of the weaker sex running things scared them. Not to mention all the hateful lies swirling around the uninformed about her. Well okay, I mentioned them. My young Trump-voting friend voted for Obama and Trump. I hope the fact that she hates Trump now is a good omen.

 

[Ryanna Enfield]

I don't trust the people who said they voted for Obama and then went and voted for Trump. I feel like they lied about voting for Obama to use it as cover for their racism when engaging in discussion with people they know are liberal. "I couldn't possibly be racist. I voted for Obama." They never voted for Obama, but they most certainly voted for Trump. Trump's policies are racist, and they support his policies. Hillary was right. Trump supporters are still deplorables. Racists are deplorable.

 

[Shiloh Lyric]

Quite simple: Hillary Clinton is as popular as an athlete's foot. I've not yet so far met an American who really likes her.

Hi, my name is Kelly. I'm an American. I really like Hillary Clinton. Because I'm not a fool who can't do her own research into what is real and what is not. Nice to meet you. And maybe find a different, more informed group of Americans to 'meet' in the future.

A Trump voter recently told me she voted for Trump because Hillary once defended (in court) rapists and she also laughed at the victim and some other horrible stuff. Now this young person hates Trump.

And, no offense, but your 'young' friend needs to learn how to use Google. Because a 2 second search into either Hillary OR Trump would have showed her just how seriously misguided...downright WRONG about what Hillary did...her thinking was.

I hope the fact that she hates Trump now is a good omen.

You could also tell her not to be so intellectually lazy and do some research. (not meant to be curt towards you, but I am just getting really tired of people who can't seem to use a search engine to save their lives, except when they're looking to buy yarn or car parts or something).

 

[Jolene Benoir]

I got to thinking about the misogyny aspect. It's a fairly widely accepted notion that Sarah Palin is what sunk John McCain's candidacy. It's also a fairly widely accepted notion that it was because she is Mrs. Crazypants.

Here's the thing, though. All of the awful things that she has ever said pale in comparison to what Trump has said and done, including well before the election. I wonder if misogyny didn't also play a subtle part in that loss, as well.

What I do know is that every female candidate and politician gets scorn that is based upon her sex. Rape threats, death threats are but just a few. I was recently watching a show (The Seventies) and it was covering the Equal Rights Amendment. Many of the usual suspects (in particular, the evangelicals) mobilized against it to ensure its failure. I was too young at the time to understand why it failed, but it was enlightening. Everywhere from video games to comic books to movies there is a huge backlash against the mere presence of women. The internet is a veritable battleground. Sick men and some women target anyone they discover is female for the very worst sorts of abuse. Sick men target women for mass shootings because of their own inadequacies. Not too far out of the mainstream press it is suggested that women *owe* men sex and if they do not get it, they are justified in their anger or worse.

None of that even touches upon birth control, abortion, equal pay (except for the ERA part) and/or proposed legislation as well as weakened existing laws that sometimes don't serve such as spousal abuse (slap on the wrist) and sexual abuse (untold backlogs in rape kits and the "She asked for it" mindset).

The pervasiveness of misogyny in our culture and others overwhelms me sometimes.

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

I don't trust the people who said they voted for Obama and then went and voted for Trump. I feel like they lied about voting for Obama to use it as cover for their racism when engaging in discussion with people they know are liberal. "I couldn't possibly be racist. I voted for Obama." They never voted for Obama, but they most certainly voted for Trump. Trump's policies are racist, and they support his policies. Hillary was right. Trump supporters are still deplorables. Racists are deplorable.

I think you're right. But my white friend has mixed race kids and black friends so I'm pretty sure that she at least did vote for Obama. Then I think she saw this meme: Clinton laughs at 12 year old rape victim.

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

I don't trust the people who said they voted for Obama and then went and voted for Trump. I feel like they lied about voting for Obama to use it as cover for their racism when engaging in discussion with people they know are liberal. "I couldn't possibly be racist. I voted for Obama." They never voted for Obama, but they most certainly voted for Trump. Trump's policies are racist, and they support his policies. Hillary was right. Trump supporters are still deplorables. Racists are deplorable.

I think you're right. But my white friend has mixed race kids and black friends so I'm pretty sure that she at least did vote for Obama. Then I think she saw this meme: Clinton laughs at 12 year old rape victim.

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

 

[Kaimi Kyomoon]

I got to thinking about the misogyny aspect. It's a fairly widely accepted notion that Sarah Palin is what sunk John McCain's candidacy. It's also a fairly widely accepted notion that it was because she is Mrs. Crazypants.

Here's the thing, though. All of the awful things that she has ever said pale in comparison to what Trump has said and done, including well before the election. I wonder if misogyny didn't also play a subtle part in that loss, as well.

What I do know is that every female candidate and politician gets scorn that is based upon her sex. Rape threats, death threats are but just a few. I was recently watching a show (The Seventies) and it was covering the Equal Rights Amendment. Many of the usual suspects (in particular, the evangelicals) mobilized against it to ensure its failure. I was too young at the time to understand why it failed, but it was enlightening. Everywhere from video games to comic books to movies there is a huge backlash against the mere presence of women. The internet is a veritable battleground. Sick men and some women target anyone they discover is female for the very worst sorts of abuse. Sick men target women for mass shootings because of their own inadequacies. Not too far out of the mainstream press it is suggested that women *owe* men sex and if they do not get it, they are justified in their anger or worse.

None of that even touches upon birth control, abortion, equal pay (except for the ERA part) and/or proposed legislation as well as weakened existing laws that sometimes don't serve such as spousal abuse (slap on the wrist) and sexual abuse (untold backlogs in rape kits and the "She asked for it" mindset).

The pervasiveness of misogyny in our culture and others overwhelms me sometimes.

Did you ever see "Mad Men"? I could only stand to watch about four episodes because it was just such a perfect depiction of life when I was growing up. e.g. My first husband believed with all his heart that when we were in the car together he had to be the driver because being driven by a woman would be unbearably humiliating.

 

[Ishina]

The interesting thing is that Hillary Clinton received almost three million more votes than Trump had...

Interesting in the fact that it totally contradicts everything else you just said and undermines your entire theory.

 

[danielravennest]

Did you ever see "Mad Men"? I could only stand to watch about four episodes because it was just such a perfect depiction of life when I was growing up. e.g. My first husband believed with all his heart that when we were in the car together he had to be the driver because being driven by a woman would be unbearably humiliating.

I remember when I first went to work at Boeing, in 1981, one of the old engineers refused to deal with computers, because "typing was for secretaries". Oh, and people could smoke in the office, and we had to wear ties. Thankfully those days are long gone now.

 

[Brian]

It's the voters who didn't mind voting for a black man as president but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a white woman who would have helped defeat her.

How I see it -
I think too much weight is given to what is most commonly the first definition of misogyny. Using hate as a defining factor isn't necessarily provable when it's there. But look at accepted other wording - showing or having contempt for women.

This happens subconsciously because it has been a part of society for too long. Many people really don't recognize it in themselves. It has to be unlearned.

We've never seen men that ran for President after careers where a serious attempt was predictable, be told We don't just take tuuurrrnnns!
I picture a final series baseball game with only historic male players being customary, seeing the girl we "let" play earlier, suddenly up at bat when her weakness might lose us the game.

Men lose these presidential races hard, only to come back again and win. I can't say if Clinton would or could, age and all circumstances considered. She would be blameless either way. The men however, are not told to shut up or go away even if they are known not to be running.
The press is still doing it -

Nothing remotely similar about Bernie Sanders who I believe is actually campaigning.

People still deny anything wrong with Comey's unconventional, public accounting of their investigation - which began by congressional order rather than any real perception or evidence of wrong-doing. They found no law-breaking, but the "extremely careless" handling of information at least needed to be called out.
I've said this before - it was the proverbial backhanding of an assertive woman demanded by society.

Trump's and Comey's handling of information will never go beyond a shoulder shrug.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

He's given up on dog-whistles. Now he's using a bloody great big loudhailer:

Trump calls Gillum ‘not equipped’ to be Florida governor

Why Trump thinks Stacey Abrams — one of 2018′s most experienced candidates — is unqualified to be governor

 

[Jorus Xi]

hate to say this but it is the media. If you look at her actual qualifications, she is amazing. She is very intelligent, has extensive experience in government, and is genuinely religious (teaching Sunday school). She ticks a lot of boxes. But she is female, and too smart. What we heard is different. I preferred Bernie because he was more inline with my beliefs, but had no issue voting for Hillary. She was damn qualified.

A big part of the issue that folks don't get when people like me say "They don't much care for Hillary" is that we are literally looking for things to be shaken up a bit. And this is true on both sides of the isle. Both parties constituents feel like that the old guard, which frankly Hillary embodies for us democrats, have largely failed us as political leaders over the last 20 years or so. The overton window keeps shifting right because the Democrats let it, this disenfranchises a good chunk of their base who frankly just stop fucking voting. Hillary is a "More of the same" candidate, and if all I wanted was today to largely be like yesterday was, she'd have been my primary vote. She wasn't my primary vote, she did eventually get my vote because I'd rather have "More of the same" than the fucking lolocaust that's happening right now.

I will say that I've softened a lot on her recently since she's been willing to pull the knives out on twitter since she no longer has to follow ~decorum~, but frankly that ~decorum~ bullshit is the exact kind of thing I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing about from Democratic Senators and the like when the republicans go around spreading blatant slander. Fuck Chuck Shumer.

As far as a future female president goes, maybe Duckworth or Gillebrand will be interested in the future? I like Liz Warren but she keeps playing trump games and doesn't realize that the rule of that particular game is "Liz loses if she engages" so she'd basically spend the entire campaign shooting herself in the foot over and over again.

EDIT: I've said it before and I'll say it again, for better or worse the presidency is a popularity contest, and it's a sad fucking state of affairs when Democrats can't put forth both a candidate who is not only qualified but also energizing. The fact that an old fucking man (Bernie) is more energizing than the vast majority of his peers makes me think that maybe Democrats ARE morons who are addicted to losing and don't realize that popularity and risk taking are part of the game.

 

[Jorus Xi]

And again again again: Assuming a CLINTON could carry the rust belt was stupid. That name is tarnished there, and while not entirely fair to Hillary, people are not now nor they ever have been rational actors.

 

[Salome]

 

[Salome]

I take the point, though insofar as white supremacy and misogyny are bedfellows, presumably the white supremacists wouldn't have voted for Obama in either election he won. It's the voters who didn't mind voting for a black man as president but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a white woman who would have helped defeat her.

The thing is, it’s become painfully clear over the last decade, that white supremacy and misogyny aren’t just overt, but operate on an insidious level where many people don’t process what’s going on with their own behavior (and, frankly, cannot be trusted to recognize when it’s pointed out to them). As we all saw during the gamergate phase, many posters (mostly white and mostly male) that wouldn’t dream of using the N word or being overtly racist were swayed significantly by obvious tactics advanced by clear antisemites attacking women in complete disproportion to their offenses (many of which where entirely projected and/or fabricated).

Obama was a young black man who was completely non-threatening. Voting for him made a lot of white liberals feel good about themselves. Advancing the cause of civil rights is something a lot of white liberals like to pat themselves on the back for, even if they have little to no understanding of the hard work and sacrifice that went into it. Look, for example, at how Bernie’s cult of personality will shout down civil rights heroes of color to point out Bernie once got arrested.

I’m not sure how it plays in other countries, but advancing feminism is never packaged as positively as advancing civil rights. To be blunt — many movies, media, and social narratives have painted civil rights from the white savior narrative (think The Help) while feminism is mostly packaged as a stodgy lecture. There are lots of civil rights narratives to make white dudes feel good about themselves. There are no “aren’t these white dudes great” narratives for feminism. I’ve come to believe that’s largely because no one goes broke playing burn the witch or shame the slut, but people do go broke or face consumer consequences over racism (Papa Johns, Paula Dean, to name two).

tl;dr there are a lot of people who could vote for Obama because it made them feel good about themselves without threatening their latent racism. That option is not really available when it comes to voting for a woman, especially HRC.

EDIT TO ADD:
I just remembered a tweet storm that provides a perfect example of how racism narratives are packaged to serve the while savior narrative (and the pet the white male ego) while woman’s issues are almost always packaged as negative for men on either side: