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detrius

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Kara Spengler

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Finally!

The DC hotel may seem like just another trumpie thing to the rest of the country but it is a big deal to some people here. Like other downtown businesses that are losing money.

I am mad the government leased that whole building to ANY private entity. It is a historical landmark (you can still get to part of it as such via a convoluted route). The lower portion was also used as a food court for local offices.
 

Kara Spengler

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A Trump voter recently told me she voted for Trump because Hillary once defended (in court) rapists and she also laughed at the victim and some other horrible stuff. Now this young person hates Trump.
That shows the person know bupkis about how an adversarial legal system works. If it were not for defence attorneys the case would not be valid under our system. Just because a lawyer defends someone in court that says nothing about their feelings on the matter.

If someone were out of the courtroom saying something as a private citizen then, yes, hold them to their stance. Holding a lawyer to what cases they were assigned is not fair though. Would she rather someone falsely accused did not have a defence?
 

Free

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EDIT TO ADD:
I just remembered a tweet storm that provides a perfect example of how racism narratives are packaged to serve the while savior narrative (and the pet the white male ego) while woman’s issues are almost always packaged as negative for men on either side:
So you freely admit to following the tweets of a guy who binge-watches 90210?
 

Salome

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So you freely admit to following the tweets of a guy who binge-watches 90210?
You should go read that thread. It's fucking hilarious. I didn't watch the show much after the second season. It apparently got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more crazy than I ever realized.
 

Kara Spengler

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*sigh*

When will she look at the polls? Like it or not, deserved or not, she lost TWICE.

People are still talking about getting Sanders. Others are talking about Warren. Personally I would love to see them both on the same ticket and really do not care which takes which slot on said ticket.

The argument last time was Bernie ppl should support Hillary because they were afraid he would be a spoiler. Well, using that logic she should step out now, right?
 
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Kara Spengler

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For reals?

Your kids learn that the Holocaust started on Nov 9th 1938???



IMO, if you want to learn about the Holocaust, you should start with the downfall of the Bavarian Council Republic in 1919 and the assassination of Kurt Eisner.
Actually, I would go back quite a lot longer than that. I tend to see history as an intermingled web though so something that looks like it only goes back a few decades can be traced from much earlier roots.
 

Brian

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*sigh*

When will she look at the polls? Like it or not, deserved or not, she lost TWICE.
It has happened quite a few times through history. Nixon might hold the record, not sure. After losing presidency to JFK, he lost a run for governor of California. His political obituary filled the press yet he won big in 68.

People are still talking about getting Sanders. Others are talking about Warren. Personally I would love to see them both on the same ticket and really do not care which takes which slot on said ticket.
I liked Sanders in 2016. He's been in the news a lot since, and it really isn't all that great. People talking positive about him now are mostly the same people who have been diehard Sanders fans.

You really should start looking yourself - at what views are outside of your circle. If anything, many people who supported him earlier are not happy with him at all now. He has commandeered other public discussions, meetings, celebrations, etc. for his own causes. Even his support for other candidates running NOW involves him sending people to berniesanders.com to donate (he keeps half and gives half to the candidate you are donating for). I could write an essay on the other examples but I'll pass for now.

I like Warren in the Senate, but to see her on a national campaign for president now? I'm afraid she'll have her foot in her mouth almost daily. I could be wrong and she might surprise, but like all other possibilities, it's not my decision who runs and how they do it is on them. I personally like Sen. Harris and still think she might be needed in Senate even more. I have no more intention of giving Bernie Sanders the time of day. He's not even a Democrat and is quite comfortable attacking them as much as the right.

The argument last time was Bernie ppl should support Hillary because they were afraid he would be a spoiler. Well, using that logic she should step out now, right?
The argument before was to go all out and support whoever won the nomination. He has to win that before I will consider anything else about him, and I don't see him doing it.

Last I looked, Hillary Clinton hasn't stepped into any race. If she does, that's her choice. I would support her if she does but don't necessarily believe she will.
How about letting people decide for themselves whether or not they run instead of thinking they should take orders from random people who don't seem any different than hecklers in the crowd?
 

Brian

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I'm afraid she'll have her foot in her mouth almost daily.
And the more I think about it, this is probably wrong for me to say because of its own tinge of contempt.

The correction would be that this it how she will be depicted in the press. This is part of the "goofy" description that wing nuts have been rolling with.
She would not have an easy route.
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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Ah, that old trope.

The Ds certainly love it when he votes with him and is supporting their candidates. Soon enough though it is 'he is not even a Democrat'. Fuck you.
He's certainly been supporting a lot of democrats in their runs this election cycle, for 'not even a democrat'. And I have to agree here. Want to know why dems have lost so many states? Because they ignore independents, or the actuality of independents. A lot of us are progressives, but they try and court the 'moderate conservatives'? And Dems need to try not to slip into the same trap as the GOP, and stop putting party over Country too. Need to get back to just looking at what a person is going to do instead of picking 'sports' teams.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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Right now there's two political parties: Nazis and everyone who isn't a nazi.

RIght now there's two practical choices of political candidates in any given race: The nazi (or nazi-supporter) and whoever has the best chance of winning besides the nazi.

Srsly, I would just love the hell out of things like Medicare for all and/or UBI. But holding out over those right when children are being sent to literal concentration camps and the sitting president is blantantly using creating military deployments out of thin air for the sake of propaganda and the critical free press is being expressly named as a public enemy, is the definition of self-destructive idiocy.

The last two years have proved that Democrats and their voters are willing to go beyond center left. It's proven. There's no need for a test-run anymore. Some elections have been won. But that kind of change on a larger scale is something that can only happen when Democrats have control of the government, or at least control of enough of it to provide the correct and intended constitutional check against Republican despotism.

There is no time right now for bellyaching about how "the lesser of two evils is still more evil". There's no time for "wah wah mainstream Dems are centrists". There are freaking white nationalist misogynist Hitlerian slugs literally running the country right now, are we clear about that? There are state government officials removing tens of thousands of black voters from the rolls and not even trying to be sneaky about it, do we understand that? They blatantly, openly gave a tax cut to billionaires and are now unrepentantly declaring that social services need to be cut to subsidize them. You really think freaking NO social services whatsoever is better than not having UBI or single-payer?

There is no more time. Time is up. Bernie Sanders can freaking wait.
 

Kara Spengler

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He's certainly been supporting a lot of democrats in their runs this election cycle, for 'not even a democrat'. And I have to agree here. Want to know why dems have lost so many states? Because they ignore independents, or the actuality of independents. A lot of us are progressives, but they try and court the 'moderate conservatives'? And Dems need to try not to slip into the same trap as the GOP, and stop putting party over Country too. Need to get back to just looking at what a person is going to do instead of picking 'sports' teams.
Exactly, they should look into why he does not call himself a Democrat (with a big D). While he subscribes to core democrat policies the Democrats want to sacrifice those principles. He simply refuses to do so but still supports the larger group of Democrats. Whether he personally calls himself a Democrat, a Social Democrat, a Socialist Democrat, a Green, or whatever makes no difference .... it is what is his record, what he is doing, and what does he want to do.
 

Kara Spengler

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Right now there's two political parties: Nazis and everyone who isn't a nazi.

RIght now there's two practical choices of political candidates in any given race: The nazi (or nazi-supporter) and whoever has the best chance of winning besides the nazi.

Srsly, I would just love the hell out of things like Medicare for all and/or UBI. But holding out over those right when children are being sent to literal concentration camps and the sitting president is blantantly using creating military deployments out of thin air for the sake of propaganda and the critical free press is being expressly named as a public enemy, is the definition of self-destructive idiocy.

The last two years have proved that Democrats and their voters are willing to go beyond center left. It's proven. There's no need for a test-run anymore. Some elections have been won. But that kind of change on a larger scale is something that can only happen when Democrats have control of the government, or at least control of enough of it to provide the correct and intended constitutional check against Republican despotism.

There is no time right now for bellyaching about how "the lesser of two evils is still more evil". There's no time for "wah wah mainstream Dems are centrists". There are freaking white nationalist misogynist Hitlerian slugs literally running the country right now, are we clear about that? There are state government officials removing tens of thousands of black voters from the rolls and not even trying to be sneaky about it, do we understand that? They blatantly, openly gave a tax cut to billionaires and are now unrepentantly declaring that social services need to be cut to subsidize them. You really think freaking NO social services whatsoever is better than not having UBI or single-payer?

There is no more time. Time is up. Bernie Sanders can freaking wait.
Good news then. More people then not want universal coverage and such. So Bernie it is, right? Glad we are agreed then.
 

Brian

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He's certainly been supporting a lot of democrats in their runs this election cycle, for 'not even a democrat'. And I have to agree here. Want to know why dems have lost so many states? Because they ignore independents, or the actuality of independents. A lot of us are progressives, but they try and court the 'moderate conservatives'? And Dems need to try not to slip into the same trap as the GOP, and stop putting party over Country too. Need to get back to just looking at what a person is going to do instead of picking 'sports' teams.
"Not even a Democrat" matters completely for running in the party. That was the context.
His support for raising money has been completely on a half for Bernie, half for the candidate. I did not make that up.

Democrats problems began half a century ago, when conservative messaging made average people believe they were paying taxes to support lazy people who wouldn't work. It escalated into not being tough on crime. Same central messages. And the people falling for it weren't even the ones paying the highest taxes, if any at all. That was half of Reagan's campaign messaging. By the time he was in office, it wasn't possible to get elected in most areas with liberal politics.

You can throw blame to Democrats there all you like, but the electorate itself are the ones responsible for putting the Republicans in power, killing the unions, dismantling aid programs, and cutting taxes for the rich which got us where we are. Reaching out to the middle in the 80s and 90s especially, was required.

I know it isn't required now. Most candidates are only doing that minimally as far as I can see.
And the progressive label has been a part of liberal politics for a long time. It does describe most running under Democratic tickets nowadays.

And party DOES matter, now more than ever. Every single Republican, no matter what you think of them as person, is almost surely going to vote along party lines in Congress just as we've witnessed. It isn't a fucking sports team.
 

danielravennest

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There is no more time. Time is up. Bernie Sanders can freaking wait.
Sanders, Clinton, and Trump are all over 70. Time for a new generation to take the wheel. Looking at the early voter demographics here in Georgia, there are a LOT of young people voting for the first time. They need someone who will represent *them*, not their grandparents. The lady running for governor here (Stacey Abrams) is 44, and in a dead heat in a red state with all the voter suppression stops pulled out. She's an example of the new generation I am talking about.
 

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The argument last time was Bernie ppl should support Hillary because they were afraid he would be a spoiler. Well, using that logic she should step out now, right?
Spoiler for whom though?

Rethugliwanks would have a field day with Warren, they will be very effective at mocking her as being 'a nervous hysterical trainwreck in every speech, you can just hear it in her voice, what kind of leader is that?!?'. Sanders they'd smear as being too old, and out of touch.
 

Kaimi Kyomoon

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...
I will say that I've softened a lot on her recently since she's been willing to pull the knives out on twitter since she no longer has to follow ~decorum~, but frankly that ~decorum~ bullshit is the exact kind of thing I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing about from Democratic Senators and the like when the republicans go around spreading blatant slander. Fuck Chuck Shumer.

...

EDIT: I've said it before and I'll say it again, for better or worse the presidency is a popularity contest, and it's a sad fucking state of affairs when Democrats can't put forth both a candidate who is not only qualified but also energizing. The fact that an old fucking man (Bernie) is more energizing than the vast majority of his peers makes me think that maybe Democrats ARE morons who are addicted to losing and don't realize that popularity and risk taking are part of the game.
I'm wary of the notion that Democrats need to take out knives. But I certainly agree that their message that they are almost the same as Republicans so vote for them is frustrating for those of us who want them to offer something different.

They need to defend themselves against dishonest attacks - with calm facts and irrefutable logic. Yes I know Trump's fans do not understand facts and logic but lots of other people do.

The most important thing that Democrats should do is go door to door explaining to people on the ground what they are offering. Not waste so much energy trying to outspend the Republicans.
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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"Not even a Democrat" matters completely for running in the party. That was the context.
His support for raising money has been completely on a half for Bernie, half for the candidate. I did not make that up.
I was referring to going out and campaigning, not raising money. Which, I could have sworn I said 'campaigning, but if I didn't, that's what I meant.

Democrats problems began half a century ago, when conservative messaging made average people believe they were paying taxes to support lazy people who wouldn't work. It escalated into not being tough on crime. Same central messages. And the people falling for it weren't even the ones paying the highest taxes, if any at all. That was half of Reagan's campaign messaging. By the time he was in office, it wasn't possible to get elected in most areas with liberal politics.
I'm well aware. But that was then, this is now. Both parties skew right, one far off into lala land. And instead of working on reaching out to the 40% that isn't in either, they ignore us, then blame us when we decide not to fall into line [and I'm saying that as someone who voted for HRC in the General in 16 - I was actually told it was -my- fault she lost, because I wasn't fangirling enough].

You can throw blame to Democrats there all you like, but the electorate itself are the ones responsible for putting the Republicans in power, killing the unions, dismantling aid programs, and cutting taxes for the rich which got us where we are. Reaching out to the middle in the 80s and 90s especially, was required.
I'm not throwing blame, I'm pointing out something where they still could FIX the problems, before they become as batshit as the GOP. A sane party will weed out the problems, not appoint them to the highest court in the land. The Democratic party isn't there yet, I'd like to see them stay away from that.

I know it isn't required now. Most candidates are only doing that minimally as far as I can see.
And the progressive label has been a part of liberal politics for a long time. It does describe most running under Democratic tickets nowadays.
Sure, you know why? Because of the progressives, trying to regain a voice in the party. With no help from the main party [DNC, DCCC], running Republican levels of nasty ads against the more progressive candidates during the primaries. The DNC and DCCC especially seem more worried about pleasing our corporate overlords, rather than worrying about what the average middle or working class person needs.

And party DOES matter, now more than ever. Every single Republican, no matter what you think of them as person, is almost surely going to vote along party lines in Congress just as we've witnessed. It isn't a fucking sports team.
Actually, it is. When people don't care what the politics are, but just vote based on 'I've always voted for this party', when people fight for their side, as if its an US vs Them, then that is a problem, and that you need someone to say this, means I probably should even be wasting my time typing this out, but it might help someone.

And considering that the GOP right now is voting to put rapists on the SCOTUS, and put the tax burden on those least able to take care of themselves, take away SS, medicare, and medicaid from those same people and those who've all paid into it, then by all means, I'd hope that someone has the heart to vote against all that. But not because of party lines, but because its the RIGHT THING TO DO.
 
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