Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

Ellie

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He lost me, though, when he called for "the complete dismantling of the Zionist state."

What does that actually mean, in practice, for the Jewish citizens and residents of Israel?
Understood.

For me, what "the complete dismantling of the Zionist state" would look like is the removal of Netanyahu and his trial for many crimes, and the removal from office and trials of all responsible for the wholesale murder of Palestinians and invasion of other countries by what is arguably a terroristic rogue state at this point, one with far too much power to influence especially the US and UK, where almost all protests against Israeli govt. mass slaughter of civilians are now criminal offenses.

Reducation of the Israeli population is also necessary, as generations have had fear, hatred and the permissible murder of not just Palestinians, but also all Muslims and Arabs pounded into their consciousness for decades, bypassing any kind of protective moral and mental process allowing them to question if any of that is lawful. What could have been a wonderful experiment in creating a country based on the best precepts of Judaism was hijacked by unscrupulous power-hungry politicos.

Fanatical Zionists remind me of the worst hard-case MAGA adherents; cruel, alarmingly and willfully ignorant, and ready to kill any who dare oppose them. I seriously doubt involving them in any peace process is possible, as this would require them to accept as human those they kill or have killed, while simultaneously staking out stolen land for their settlement homes and beach-front condo projects in Gaza.

Jewish residents of Israel and Jewish populations worldwide shouldn't suffer fallout from the actions of the corrupt, self-preservationist and bloody butcher now running the country. And yet they will, maybe even for generations to come. While the Palestinians may never recover from what has been and is still being done to them.

Some hope may lie in the many Israelis are now shrugging off the influence of intensive hasbara from a very early age, and wanting to take their country back from these monsters.

I doubt those benfiting from the continued erasure of the Palestinians and their country would get onboard with a new, more tolerant and accepting Israel, one that truly aids, honors, and respects all, especially its own Israeli holocaust survivors (one in three live in poverty) and can never again murder and invade its neighbors.


One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Understood.

For me, what "the complete dismantling of the Zionist state" would look like is the removal of Netanyahu and his trial for many crimes, and the removal from office and trials of all responsible for the wholesale murder of Palestinians and invasion of other countries by what is arguably a terroristic rogue state at this point, one with far too much power to influence especially the US and UK, where almost all protests against Israeli govt. mass slaughter of civilians are now criminal offenses.

Reducation of the Israeli population is also necessary, as generations have had fear, hatred and the permissible murder of not just Palestinians, but also all Muslims and Arabs pounded into their consciousness for decades, bypassing any kind of protective moral and mental process allowing them to question if any of that is lawful. What could have been a wonderful experiment in creating a country based on the best precepts of Judaism was hijacked by unscrupulous power-hungry politicos.

Fanatical Zionists remind me of the worst hard-case MAGA adherents; cruel, alarmingly and willfully ignorant, and ready to kill any who dare oppose them. I seriously doubt involving them in any peace process is possible, as this would require them to accept as human those they kill or have killed, while simultaneously staking out stolen land for their settlement homes and beach-front condo projects in Gaza.

Jewish residents of Israel and Jewish populations worldwide shouldn't suffer fallout from the actions of the corrupt, self-preservationist and bloody butcher now running the country. And yet they will, maybe even for generations to come. While the Palestinians may never recover from what has been and is still being done to them.

Some hope may lie in the many Israelis are now shrugging off the influence of intensive hasbara from a very early age, and wanting to take their country back from these monsters.

I doubt those benfiting from the continued erasure of the Palestinians and their country would get onboard with a new, more tolerant and accepting Israel, one that truly aids, honors, and respects all, especially its own Israeli holocaust survivors (one in three live in poverty) and can never again murder and invade its neighbors.


One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say
This, I think, is the problem with terms like "Zionist" (and, indeed, "Muslim fundamentalist").

You say, "Fanatical Zionists remind me of the worst hard-case MAGA adherents; cruel, alarmingly and willfully ignorant, and ready to kill any who dare oppose them," which is a perfectly reasonable observation.

However, when people talk about Zionists in the contemporary context they don't normally include that sort of qualification and, instead, use it to mean anyone who thinks the state of Israel has a right to exist. That, of course, includes not just about every Jewish citizen or resident of Israel and the vast majority of Jews worldwide, but also anyone who believes in a two-state solution (the official policy of the UN and and most governments).

That's what worries me -- there's a huge difference between ethno-religious fascists like Binyamin Netanyahu and the leaders of the other fascist parties who make up his coalition and someone living in the UK who is horrified by what Netanyahu is doing to Gaza but who also hopes that cousin Betty and her family are safe and well in Tel Aviv and that they remain so, but this gets lost in the rhetoric about "Zionists."

I invite you to read Hamas' May 2017 statement of Principles and Policies (that is, the supposedly more moderate version, as opposed to the original 1988 Covenant, complete with conspiracy theories out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion), and try to imagine a similar document published by an American Christian militia group, substituting "Christians", "Christianity" and "the United States" for "Muslims," "Islam" and "Palestine" as appropriate.

Who would that remind you of?

You'll note that Hamas are at pains to distinguish Jews as a religious group, with whom they say they have no quarrel, and Zionists

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
That contains no qualifications about Zionists in general (i.e. almost all Jewish residents of Israel and most Jews worldwide) and "Fanatical Zionists" like Netanyahu, Bezalel Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, and that's what concerns me.

To my mind, Hamas are just as much an ethno-religious fascist group as are the current Israeli government, and I'm baffled that otherwise reasonable people outside the Middle East feel that opposing one group of fascists means they have to back the other group.
 
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Ellie

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I had intended to reply to Innula's thoughtful post, but realized must first really dig deep into the definitions of Zionism - there are a few out there.

I don't believe most Jewish people identify as Zionists, although that's often repeated as fact. Maybe in Israeli, yes, but not globally, unless one defines Zionism as broadly as possible; support for the existence of an Israeli state.

I’m also looking again at Hamas, what it intended to achieve with its 7 Oct incursion, and how widespread application of the Hannibal Directive by the IDF impacted that. Much of the available info on these topics from mainstream media and online sources is as reliable as the widely-reported-as-fact (Biden cited it) Israeli govt. and ZAKA's 40 beheaded babies, and IDF's Hamas duty roster (Arabic calendar) lies.
Israeli press sources, especially Haaretz, are often the most credible. *

* IDF okayed Nova music festival, but didn’t inform troops deployed at border, probe finds


Most recent lies involve Hamas stealing aid intended for the Palestinians.

There are lots of others reasons, of course, to reject Israel’s lies about "Hamas stealing aid". Not least, because every single charity and aid agency dealing with Gaza says that aid is not being stolen by Hamas.
https://x.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/1927126395567685939

If, by some miracle, the IDF completely eradicated Hamas, this would not stop the genocide in Gaza.

Thought-provoking article by Jonathan Cook.

Without Hamas, Gaza would still not be free

Mehdi Hasan and Bassem Youssef discussion.
No matter what any think of these two commentators, they cover a massive amount of ground; guarantee you’ll learn something new.

The Missing 'Beheaded Babies' - Mehdi & Bassem Debunk Oct. 7 Lies
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I don't believe most Jewish people identify as Zionists, although that's often repeated as fact. Maybe in Israeli, yes, but not globally, unless one defines Zionism as broadly as possible; support for the existence of an Israeli state.
But that's the problem -- Hamas do define Zionism as broadly as possible:

XIV. The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.


XV. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.


XVI. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.


XVII. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.


XVIII. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.


XIX. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.


XX. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.


XXI. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).


XXII. Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.
The demand for Israel's immediate withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank, which are indubitably occupied unlawfully, is fair enough.

The status of the old city of East Jerusalem (population ~65% Palestinian, includes holy sites like the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Western Wall) is tricky -- it's left unresolved under the Oslo Accords, but prior to 1967 it was under Jordanian control (Jordan actually annexed it in 1950, but few countries recognised that). West Jerusalem (population ~63% Jewish) was previously part of Israel.

Hamas want both back immediately under their proposed interim arrangement. But even if Israel were to agree to hand over the whole of Jerusalem, which seems to me completely improbable, Hamas say they still wouldn't recognise "the Zionist entity" and this would be but a stepping stone on the road to the establishment of a Palestinian state "from the river to the sea," so there's absolutely nothing in it for Israel. Meanwhile, what's likely become of the Jewish residents of West and East Jerusalem?

Para XVII is worth further consideration:

Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
Where does this leave the Sephardi, Mizrahi and Yemeni Jews in Israel, who between them comprise some 60% of the Jewish population of Israel and are mostly there because their families were either expelled from or (mostly) fled from persecution in Muslim-majority countries in North Africa and the Middle East post-1947? They might have something to say on the topic.

Northern Ireland isn't a precise parallel, but it's the best point of reference that I have.

Back in the 1980s, during internment and the hunger strikes, my sympathies were wholly with the Nationalists' desire for a united Ireland (though I had my reservations about the Republic's then constitution, which outlawed divorce and abortion, and heavily restricted access to contraception), I accepted that, while I thought it was a mistake, Partition was an historical fact, the Unionist majority in NI didn't want to become part of the Republic and didn't want to have to leave NI for the British mainland (which didn't want them anyway, and certainly not on the mainland, any more than did the Republic really want suddenly to become responsible for a large, aggrieved and armed Protestant community in the six counties in the north-east of a united Ireland into which the Protestants had been dragooned against their will). I also knew, from my university days, several NI Unionists, all of whom seemed perfectly reasonable people who disliked the Orange Orders and Ian Paisley as much as did I, but didn't want to be part of the Republic which was, at the time, dominated by very conservative (and corrupt) Catholic political parties.

Furthermore, I was very aware that, besides their political agendas, the paramilitaries on both sides were heavily involved in organised crime (drugs, protection rackets, smuggling and bank robberies) which is how they funded themselves, and that many of PIRA's supporters and activists were Catholic fascists who'd have been perfectly at home in Franco's Spain.

At the time I was living in CA, where many American friends and colleagues wanted to know my take on Northern Ireland. I found it impossible to discuss with them, though, because of our wholly different perspectives -- they saw it as a straightforward conflict between Irish freedom fighters and British imperialists, while I saw it as a horrible mess that no one other than the people directly involved really understood and of which even Brits and Irish citizens had only the vaguest understanding.

I suspect many Jews, both in the diaspora and Israel, find themselves in a similar situation.

Certainly, though, at least to my mind, whatever the justice of the Palestinian cause, Hamas are far, far worse than MAGA.

ETA: I learned today, from Ha'aretz, that The Arab States Finally Broke With Hamas – but Their Message Needs to Reach Israelis Directly. It was news to me, too, despite the fact it has been comparatively widely reported
 
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ETA: I learned today, from Ha'aretz, that The Arab States Finally Broke With Hamas – but Their Message Needs to Reach Israelis Directly. It was news to me, too, despite the fact it has been comparatively widely reported
Not enough. The biggest backer of Hamas is Iran, and they are Persians - not Arabs. It is a beginning, but not more.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Not enough. The biggest backer of Hamas is Iran, and they are Persians - not Arabs. It is a beginning, but not more.
Yes, Islamic republican Iran backs Hamas and Hezbollah because they want to use them in order to be a regional superpower, counterbalancing Israel. Besides using their own missiles they can, or have been able to until recently, deploy those paramilitaries on their behalf.

The Arab monarchies look to the US as their protector against the Iranians, who want to replace them with Iranian-aligned religious populist regimes.
 
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The Guardian: Boycott the banquet, send a tweet. But ending the horror in Gaza still relies on the worst people in the world

Strange to look at the Yalta conference photo of Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt and think how much more quickly the three allied wartime leaders could have wrapped things up had they shunned various complexities and understood the world as a simple selection of waterfront real-estate opportunities. And yet, perhaps even stranger to imagine that while we don’t have a group selfie of Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and Benjamin Netanyahu, the curse of our times is that the fate of so many appallingly desperate and persecuted people in the world hinges on three men who might well be imagined to be in jail were they not in office.

But these are the realities. The path to peace in Gaza runs through Trump, not social media posts, or window flags, or creatives “using their platform”, or any of the other gestures that, while the wishful might cast them as speaking truth to power, in fact only throw our era’s increasingly pervasive sense of powerlessness into even sharper relief.
This rather echoes my thoughts on receiving an election flyer the other day from the Liberal Democrats' candidate in a town council by-election where I live. In addition to explaining her policies on various local issues (many of which aren't really under the control of the town council, but still...) she explained, at length, her support for the Palestinians and her opposition to Israel.

What, I wondered, does she expect our town council to do about the Middle East if she gets elected?
 
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Yes, Islamic republican Iran backs Hamas and Hezbollah because they want to use them in order to be a regional superpower, counterbalancing Israel. Besides using their own missiles they can, or have been able to until recently, deploy those paramilitaries on their behalf.

The Arab monarchies look to the US as their protector against the Iranians, who want to replace them with Iranian-aligned religious populist regimes.
Which didn't hinder Qatar from backing up Hamas in the past even the slightest.
 

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Which didn't hinder Qatar from backing up Hamas in the past even the slightest.
Right. Qatar, as I understand it, is trying to protect itself from Hamas and give itself some influence over both Hamas and other states in the region by positioning itself as an intermediary. Hamas gets a safe base in Qatar where it can negotiate so long as it behaves and doesn't upset the Qataris too much.
 

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The Washington Post has disclosed the postwar plan on Gaza within the Trump administration.

It would turn Gaza in a trusteeship administered by the USA for at least 10 years, while cities are being rebuild and the whole area is being transformed in a gleaming tourism resort, high-tech manufacturing and technology hub.

The paper envisions at least temporary relocation of the population, either by paying them to leave or shoving them into restricted, secured zones inside the enclage during reconstruction.

Land owners will be offered a digital token by the trust in exchange for the right to develop their property, which can be used to finance a new life elsewhere or eventually redeem for an apartment in one of 6-8 new smart cities to be built in gaza. Palestines leaving will get at least $5000 cash and subsidies over four years of rent elsewhere, also one year ofd food.

The whole thing is being called Gaza Reconstitution, Economic Acceleration and Transformation Trust or in short the GREAT Trust. It was developed together with some Israelis and Boston Consulting Group.

The most appealing factor seems to be that it requires no US government funding and offers profit to investors. The estimated investment is around $100 bn., and the plan estimated a fourfold return of that amount after 10 years.

The WP leaked the whole PDF in the article.

 

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Greta Thunberg is on her way again to Gaza strip on the Mediterrenean sea with a flotilla of 20 boats leaving from Barcelona.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's national security minister, is cooking up a plan to detain the activists and put them into terrorist-level detention centers in order to eliminate their appetite for another attempt.

It is expected that Israel again will stop the flotilla long before reaching the shores of Gaza strip.

Israel’s foreign ministry said the activists “attempted to stage a media provocation whose sole purpose was to gain publicity. There are ways to deliver aid to the Gaza Strip – they do not involve Instagram selfies.”

Donald Trump, the US president, also weighed in on Ms Thunberg’s previous mission to Gaza, saying: “I think Israel has enough problems without kidnapping Greta Thunberg. She’s a young, angry person… I think she has to go to an anger management class.”

 
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Whelp, Scotland just laid down the gauntlet

The Palestinian flag has been flown outside Scottish Government buildings as the First Minister announced funding to arms companies that sell weapons to Israel had been paused.

John Swinney announced a range of actions the Scottish Government is to take in response to the “unacceptable” situation in Gaza.

This included announcing a removal of support by Scottish Government officials and bodies from facilitating trade with Israel.
 

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Google is in the middle of a six-month $45 million contract with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office to promote government messages and downplay the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, according to a report by Drop Site News.

The contract, signed in late June, describes Google as a "key entity" in supporting Netanyahu's public relations strategy, the outlet reported on Wednesday.

The campaign began days after Israel blocked food, medicine, fuel and other humanitarian supplies from entering Gaza on March 2. Lawmakers questioned officials about whether the government had prepared for the public relations fallout.
A spokesperson for the Israeli army said at the time that authorities could launch a digital campaign "to explain that there is no hunger and present the data."

Since then, government ads denying starvation in Gaza have run widely, including a YouTube video from Israel's Foreign Ministry that declared "there is food in Gaza. Any other claim is a lie." The clip has been viewed more than 6 million times, much of it boosted through paid promotion.

According to the report, the ads are managed through YouTube and Google's Display & Video 360 platform and are characterised in government documents as "hasbara" — a Hebrew term often translated as "propaganda."
Gotta (mis)inform the World's masses.
 

Ellie

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Another thought-provoking interview. Covers Hannibal directive use, etc.

 

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Evernote Link
It’s always worth asking what lies behind propaganda.

When sneering sophists tell me that antisemitism doesn’t exist, I know full well that they are looking for new ways to channel anti-Jewish hatred. When Benjamin Netanyahu accuses anyone who dares to criticise him of pouring “fuel on an antisemitic fire” or “abandoning Jews,” I know that the hyperbole hides a power grab.
While Netanyahu and his ministers condemn all other Western leaders, they flatter Trump in the most oleaginous manner and insist that he receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

Just as Trump feels that he can alienate former friends in Europe and Asia without his country paying a price, so Netanyahu believes that the Israeli right can do as it pleases because Trump has its back.

But hubris is always followed by nemesis, and pride always comes before a fall. Trump won’t last forever – indeed you can look at him and wonder if he will last to the end of the week. Israel is just one US election away from being alone in the world.

A true American isolationist, who regards the Middle East as a needless foreign entanglement, could take the Republican ticket, or a liberal sympathetic to the Palestinian cause could be the next Democrat leader.

If either happens, Israelis will look on the bombast of the Netanyahu era and see today’s leaders for what they are: cruel and dangerous fools. And no, I do not believe it is antisemitic to say that