Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

Cristiano

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There is a famous quote from Nietzsche - "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you". Make no mistake, Hamas is a monster. What they did to Israel was horrific, and the hostages deserve to be home. The Israeli deaths were senseless and tragic. That said, what the Israeli government continues to do at the behest of Benjamin Netanyahu is now genocide. They have become the monster I fear.

What is happening in Gaza is a terrible tragedy, and I hate that the US and other nations do not do more to stop Israel from what they are continuing to do. The death toll in Gaza exceeds 30,000 - with more dying every day. Innocent civilians, children, people trying to survive - targeted at times with indifference and viewed as collateral damage. It sickens me. I believe Israel deserves peace, and so do the Palestinians. Hamas is a terror organization, but at this point, the IDF is becoming one. The world is standing by watching this happen, and it is an atrocity.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I've been following the news best I can and don't even know what to think... the other thread covered how there has been a lot of disinformation on the topic so I'm hesitant to assume I know what is really going on.

I am deeply distrustful of Hamas and not sure I trust the far right government of Israel much more than I do Hamas. I still don't regard this as a "genocide" since civilians always die in great numbers when a war covers a populated area. That's not the same thing as intentional genocide. ...but I can see why many feel it looks like one. I do not think Israel is doing enough to protect civilians but also not entirely sure what all it can do.

I don't think the IDF is a terror organization but I do think Netanyahu clearly doesn't really give a crap about Gazan civilian deaths. He needs to go.

I know this post was a bit of a mess, but so is the situation! I don't have good answers.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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The Jews learned a very hard lesson from the Shoah. This led to one very heavy consequence, which is now engrained in their lifes and one of the most deeply rooted principals of Israel: we never want to be victims again.

When Israel was created, the trouble already began, being constantly threatened to be put off the map, attacks and so on. This is stuff enough for several lecture cycles of history.

Anyway, also many attacks of Hamas which can happen daily, are merely a foot note in our news. Most of the time this is when RPGs/mortars etc. are fired without notice upfront again at populated areas of Israel from Gaza, causing a heavy civilian death toll. I am pretty sure if Cuba would act like that, and would shoot such things at Florida, Cuba would be invaded by the US Army quickly.

The thing for me though is this: I don't believe that Israel right now cares about not being a monster, because they do most care aboubt their survival right now. And another lesson from Shoah: you must fight for your survival on your own and cannot trust or depend on others! Hamas reached a tipping point within Israel's society with their attacks back then in October 2023. The vast majority of Israel is at the moment in an "enough is enough" mood, and only cares about decimating Hamas so heavily, that it will take years for them to become operable again. Since quite often Hamas and Palestine population is indistinguishable, well so be it then. In their eyes the Palestines had more than enough chances to calm down, but always blew it. They don't really trust them to be willing to be peaceful any longer. Israel wants to get rid of their victimhood status here, and if this means becoming the monster they don't care.

And this is exactly what we are witnessing here now, the tragic climax of a decade spanning vicious cycle of never ending violence.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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This 12 year old video footage shows the impact a Qassam rocket from Gaza has if it hits a house. This in a typical incident which would merely reported to us, but can happen everyday. The reason why casualties are not higher is that Israelis are being trained from a very young age how to react in case of such bombardment and almost every house has protection rooms.


Anyway... most people in Israel do agree that Netanyahu's days as PM are over, once the war is over. He promised security, failed and is an epitome of the past.
 
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Cristiano

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Anyway... most people in Israel do agree that Netanyahu's days as PM are over, once the war is over. He promised security, failed and is an epitome of the past.
He knows that - and this gives him an incentive to keep this going indefinitely to hold onto power.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Yes, he does. The problem is that at both sides there are way too many people which who have no interest in deescalation.
 

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With the current iffy state of mainstream news reporting, I find myself turning to two sources i've learned to respect over the last (mumbles, I forget) years for thought-provoking info on this deadly and heartbreaking conflict.

https://www.richardsilverstein.com/
Who taught me the meaning of Tikun Olam, and much more

And
Jonathan Cook: Journalist reporting on Israel and Palestine

I wish all involved a sustainable solution and lasting peace, but am realistic enough to know many, many more will die before even a whisper of this is felt.

Also, fu*k all murderous politicos who see civilian deaths as an acceptable means to achieving their goals.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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I have been reading this blog here since years - "Letters from Rungholt. Sleepless in Israel", which started around 2006. This is the blog of a German expat written in German, who married decades ago to Israel and is living there with her jewish husband and family of 5.

It is a mixture about what daily life in Israel is all about, but also reporting the impact of attacks or war on Israel. It gives also quite a good view about what the common - non orthodox - Israeli society might think. It also has quite the big link list, and always was more moderate and not too extreme in the points of views.

So it is the internal, daily common view from inside Israel on the whole situation, and much much more.

I have learned 4 important things from that blog:

1. you cannot separate religion from politics in Israel, it just doesn't work.
2. Most Israelis nowadays don't differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian civil population in Gaza any longer, because in their eyes this is impossible and quite evident that the vast majority of Palestines does support and embrace Hamas' actions. So they are pretty much frustrated about that many Western press still makes that separation between bad terrorist and good palestines as poor victims which have to do nothing with Hamas.
3. As long as there is Hamas, which by the way was created with help of Israel to weaken PLO/Fatah, with its current charta there will be no peace.
4. Many Israelis are of the opinion, that there is a common pattern which emerged during the decades of conflicts which they are tired about: first Israel gets some sympathy from the western world after something happened, but this will quickly shift in favor over to the Palestines, putting the major blame then on Israel alone, making demands only at Israel and not the Palestines any longer. So they think that Palestines always are viewed in the long run unfairly in a way too good way for what they did and what happened to Israel. For example, they do consider the BBC as way too Palestine friendly right now. Or in short: the Western world public always gives a shit about us in the long run, making us the bogeyman and pampering the Palestines, so we do give a shit about their opinion.


She also wrote some paragraphs about how peace could be achieved in her opinion, here we go:

"I've been saying it for years. To resolve this conflict, several things must happen. The international community must warn Qatar and the Islamic Republic of Iran and put them in their place. UNRWA, this corrupt shop, must be dismantled, the flow of money must be tracked, and abuses must be uncovered. The hereditary refugee status of the Palestinians, this meaningless unique selling point, must be abolished, and the countries in which there are descendants of the refugees must be obliged to grant Palestinians equal rights.

And the Palestinians must finally start building a true civil society. A society that is not just a facade, as in the Gaza Strip, behind whose hotels and hospitals, shops and villas (yes, there were entire residential areas there) no longer hide terrorist tunnels and rocket factories. They need to start teaching their children math, English, literature and history - the real history, not their made-up narrative of land grabbing and oppression. They had the chance to do that in 2005 and missed it.

If the international community, which has supported the Palestinians with unimaginable sums of money without checking where the money is going (IDF has found whole packages of money in the tunnels), if this “community” owes the Palestinians anything, it is this: towards it insist that they become a productive, life-affirming, peaceful and cooperative population.

The two-state solution is not an instant gift for terrorism, but a long-term offer. Give us fifteen or twenty years without terror, without lies, with bilateral relations and cooperation based on Stef Wertheimer's model of joint industrial parks, with student exchanges and joint ecological projects. After such a period of cooperation rather than aggression, a two-state solution is a realistic goal.

But what it looks like today? Why should Israel expose itself to this danger? Hamas and Fatach have both repeatedly said that they do not want a two-state solution, but rather want to eradicate Israel and end October 7th. as a blueprint for future actions. If the international community simply ignores these statements and the daily terror in order to believe in a fantasy project, the peaceful, compromise-ready Palestinian who so badly wants to be a good neighbor - then we are left isolated. It's a shame, but then the world hasn't, still hasn't, seen what has been clear to us for years."
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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If I had a time machine I would go back and tell them to put Palestine in the north next to Lebanon instead of creating this ludicrous patchwork of unworkable enclaves that are the West Bank and Gaza.

Or move the whole Jewish state to Southern California.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Well there were discussions back then in the days to create the Jewish state in Australia, the so called Kimberley plan. It was not realised, of course.

The jews wanted to go back to their origins mostly, so they did.

 
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Innula Zenovka

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If I had a time machine I would go back and tell them to put Palestine in the north next to Lebanon instead of creating this ludicrous patchwork of unworkable enclaves that are the West Bank and Gaza.

Or move the whole Jewish state to Southern California.
Moving the entire Palestinian state (or anyone who wants to go) to Southern California might be an alternative plan.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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If I had a time machine, I would go back to the time of Lawrence of Arabia, kick the British empire in its sorrow ass and make it delivering its promises to the Arabs. Many of the problems in the middle east today have their origins there.


Also this paper by the CIA dated 28/11/1947 clearly describes the consequences, if Palestine - back then just Israel - would be split up into Arabs and a Jewish state: war.

 

GoblinCampFollower

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If I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1914 and tell the Archduke Ferdinand not to visit Sarajevo.
From what I understand of European history, the major powers were just DYING to go to war and unleash their built up tension. He was just the excuse.... would have happened anyway in all likelihood.

They say when WWI broke out, people cheered. WWII was when people cried because WWI was such a wakeup call about how nasty wars could be.

EDIT: This post is oversimplified, I explain it better in my following post. Not so much they wanted to, but had hair triggers for war.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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Moving the entire Palestinian state (or anyone who wants to go) to Southern California might be an alternative plan.
That was a California joke, but it's probably 40 years out of date since that's how long ago I left the Bay Area.

They say when WWI broke out, people cheered. WWII was when people cried because WWI was such a wakeup call about how nasty wars could be.
Insert Terry Pratchett quote about Pals Battalions/Chums Brigades here.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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From what I understand of European history, the major powers were just DYING to go to war and unleash their built up tension. He was just the excuse.... would have happened anyway in all likelihood.

They say when WWI broke out, people cheered. WWII was when people cried because WWI was such a wakeup call about how nasty wars could be.
I don't think so. The problem, from what I've read, is that no one wanted a war, but everyone was worried one might break out, because every major European power was nervous about at least one of the others, and Wilhelm II was thought to be a bit of a loose cannon, so everyone entered into increasingly complex defensive alliances with the intention of deterring everyone from fighting.

When Ferdinand was assasinated, most countries -- and certainly the British -- saw it as a comparatively minor incident that would soon blow over precisely because they didn't think anyone would be crazy enough to go to war over it. Even as late as June 1914 the British thought the situation in Europe was more stable than it had been for years. Then there were a catastrophic series of misjudgments on all sides.
 
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