Has The Israeli Goverment BecomeThe Monster?

[Mona Eberhardt]

You forgot to mention that right-wing violence is almost never labelled as terrorism by the authorities. For instance, Konstantinos Plevris' "4th of August Party" is not called a terrorist group, even though it bombed cinemas and bookstores where "communist" movies and books were shown / sold. And the KKK in the US is not considered a terrorist group, either. So, stats from authorities that whitewash right-wing violence through calling the perp "mentally disturbed", "socially inept" or whatever are about as worthless as all the justifications I've seen for Netanyahu and the West's unconditional support for him.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

You forgot to mention that right-wing violence is almost never labelled as terrorism by the authorities. For instance, Konstantinos Plevris' "4th of August Party" is not called a terrorist group, even though it bombed cinemas and bookstores where "communist" movies and books were shown / sold. And the KKK in the US is not considered a terrorist group, either. So, stats from authorities that whitewash right-wing violence through calling the perp "mentally disturbed", "socially inept" or whatever are about as worthless as all the justifications I've seen for Netanyahu and the West's unconditional support for him.

I think Innula was mostly thinking of her own country but your comments are very spot on for the USA (and maybe other countries) in particular:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/17/justice-department-study-far-right-extremist-violence

Far right violence is a huge problem here, and the current administration is keen to white wash it.

And I think a lot of Innula's comments about Europe walling off the far right were.... conditionally true for a lot of Europe, especially Germany, but not nearly so true for Italy, and not really at all true for the USA. In the USA, being a full on Nazi has always been understood to be protected speech!

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I think Innula was mostly thinking of her own country but your comments are very spot on for the USA (and maybe other countries) in particular:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/17/justice-department-study-far-right-extremist-violence

Far right violence is a huge problem here, and the current administration is keen to white wash it.

And I think a lot of Innula's comments about Europe walling off the far right were.... conditionally true for a lot of Europe, especially Germany, but not nearly so true for Italy, and not really at all true for the USA. In the USA, being a full on Nazi has always been understood to be protected speech!

The point I sought to make was that, post WW2, none of the main centre-right parties in most of Europe (certainly Germany, France and the UK) would have nothing to do with the far-right. That's broken down over the last 30 or 40 years, though.

Sam Freedman had an interesting piece about this in his substack last week

Never again?

Memory entrepreneurship and the radical right’s assault on the postwar order

samf.substack.com

 

[Innula Zenovka]

You forgot to mention that right-wing violence is almost never labelled as terrorism by the authorities. For instance, Konstantinos Plevris' "4th of August Party" is not called a terrorist group, even though it bombed cinemas and bookstores where "communist" movies and books were shown / sold. And the KKK in the US is not considered a terrorist group, either. So, stats from authorities that whitewash right-wing violence through calling the perp "mentally disturbed", "socially inept" or whatever are about as worthless as all the justifications I've seen for Netanyahu and the West's unconditional support for him.

I don't know how right-wing terrorism is prosecuted outside the UK. However, it's simply incorrect to say that the British authorities, at least, don't prosecute far-right terrorism as terrorism, because they do.

Only last week, these three were sentenced

Far-right extremists jailed for terror plots

Three Nazi-worshipping extremists convicted of terror offences are sentenced.

www.bbc.co.uk

and, over the last couple of years...

Far-right extremist jailed for 12 years for terrorist offenses

Police seized books, masks and memorabilia of an extreme right-wing nature, including a replica gun.

www.bbc.co.uk

Extreme right-wing teenager sentenced for terrorism and assault offences | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

Colin McNeil: Leeds host of terrorist website jailed

Colin McNeil, of Leeds, ran two websites which glorified mass murderers and terrorists, court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

Neo-Nazi Brighton teenager with Hove synagogue bomb plan jailed

A judge describes Mason Reynolds as dangerous and jails him for eight years.

www.bbc.co.uk

Joe Metcalfe jailed for plotting mosque terror attack dressed as PC

Joe Metcalfe was 15 when he planned a far-right terror attack in West Yorkshire, a court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

Neo-Nazi prison officer jailed for having white supremacist 'murder manual'

HMP Armley guard Ashley Podsiad-Sharp is described by a judge as an "extremely dangerous" man.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Is that study bundling "Islamist" and "left-wing", because, you know, they have more in common with the hard right.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Is that study bundling "Islamist" and "left-wing", because, you know, they have more in common with the hard right.

The one I linked had it as a separate category. Not immediately sure about Innula's links yet. Right wingers are responsible for 84% o political murders in the USA omitting 9/11.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Is that study bundling "Islamist" and "left-wing", because, you know, they have more in common with the hard right.

No, the UK currently uses three main categories to describe the ideological basis of terrorism, " Extreme Right-Wing Terrorism (ERWT)," "Islamist terrorism," and "Left Wing, Anarchist and Single-Issue Terrorism (LASIT)"

Glossary of terms

www.gov.uk

The most recent figures of which I'm aware are these:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2025-0126

According to the latest government figures, there were 252 people in custody for terrorism and terrorism-connected offences in Great Britain on 30 June 2024, which is the highest number since comparable records began in 2020.

Of those in custody, the majority (63%) were categorised as holding Islamist-extremist views; a further 29% were categorised as holding extreme right-wing ideologies and 9% were categorised as holding ‘other’ ideologies.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

The one I linked had it as a separate category. Not immediately sure about Innula's links yet. Right wingers are responsible for 84% o political murders in the USA omitting 9/11.

It wasn't clear, because nowhere do they show an actual breakdown, and the only figures they gave seemed to have an excessively large number of "left-wing" incidents.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

It wasn't clear, because nowhere do they show an actual breakdown, and the only figures they gave seemed to have an excessively large number of "left-wing" incidents.

That article was about it being taken down. This has the actual chart:

https://time.com/7317383/political-violence-america-trump-crackdown-right/

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Yes, I went to the archive.org link for the original paper.

 

[Mona Eberhardt]

I think Innula was mostly thinking of her own country but your comments are very spot on for the USA (and maybe other countries) in particular:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/17/justice-department-study-far-right-extremist-violence

Far right violence is a huge problem here, and the current administration is keen to white wash it.

And I think a lot of Innula's comments about Europe walling off the far right were.... conditionally true for a lot of Europe, especially Germany, but not nearly so true for Italy, and not really at all true for the USA. In the USA, being a full on Nazi has always been understood to be protected speech!

In Italy, neo-fascist terrorist groups like Ordine Nuovo were only reluctantly treated as terrorist. In Greece? Golden Dawn has murdered and brutalized numerous migrants. No one called them terrorists. Not even when they murdered Pavlos Fyssas. And I'll tell you why: the fascists are a useful source of racist and "Other" (from migrant to "freeloading welfare queen") rhetoric for the "centrists". See Germany, for instance, where Bürgergeld, which has some similarities to Universal Basic Income (UBI) was abolished - with the "centrists" and "moderates" (CDU, CSU, SPD) eagerly adopting the Nazi AfD's arguments against it (along with some of Ayn Rand's rants about "freeloaders"): German government attacks the welfare state: Basic support payments to be abolished

Is that study bundling "Islamist" and "left-wing", because, you know, they have more in common with the hard right.

Religious fanaticism is always hard right. The fact that it is bundled with the left wing tells a very detailed story of (government?) deception.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Religious fanaticism is always hard right. The fact that it is bundled with the left wing tells a very detailed story of (government?) deception.

I agree, which is why I find it difficult to understand why so many people on the left, at least in Europe and the US, are so prepared to align themselves with all manner ethno-religious fascists and authoritarians so long as they're opposed to the US and Israel.

The British left would never dream of allowing (for example) supporters of Nigel Farage's Reform Party to join a demonstration the left had organised in favour of making child benefit payments to the mother for all children in her family, not just the first two, even though -- at least at present -- Reform support such a measure, but they have a blind spot when it comes to supporters of religious militias like the Islamic Resistance Movement ( Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, or Hamas), who are bitter opponents of the secular, socialist PLO.

Dave Rich, in The Left's Jewish Problem: Jeremy Corbyn, Israel and Anti-Semitism, describes some of the initial debates during the formation of the Stop The War coalition back in the 90s and early 00s

This alliance began as a pragmatic one, to avoid duplicating efforts in campaigns for the Palestinians and against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It then became a proactive one, as Islamists and leftists saw advantages and benefits in working with each other. While the Labour Party had relied on votes from Asian communities for many years, the radical left had ignored the Muslim community, and particularly political Islamists, viewing them with suspicion as not only religious but also socially reactionary. ‘The Islamists are not our allies,’ wrote the Socialist Workers Party’s Chris Harman in 1994, and they are not ‘progressives’. However, he argued, Islamism is still a movement that seeks to overthrow the existing order and transform society, and this is something that socialists can exploit. ‘When we do find ourselves on the same side as the Islamists, part of our job is to argue strongly with them, to challenge them,’ and, where possible, to convert them to socialism. This typical Trotskyist opportunism turned out to be hopelessly optimistic. His warning that Islamists are not progressive clearly fell on deaf ears; if anything, it is Islamists that have had the greater influence over socialists, not the other way around.

Nevertheless

many more people were excited by the possibilities offered by a left-Islamist alliance than were opposed to it. This has involved some compromises on both sides. Lindsey German, when challenged on the attitude of Islamists to homosexuality, told a Socialist Workers Party conference that ‘I’m in favour of defending gay rights, but I am not prepared to have it as a shibboleth.’ The Muslim Association of Britain refused to actually affiliate to the Stop the War Coalition, fearing (rightly) that it would be dominated by the leftists who ran it, but agreed to work with it as long as it would provide ‘gender-segregated spaces and halal food’ at meetings. Andrew Murray, the Stop the War Coalition’s first chair, found the prospect of gender-segregated meetings ‘uncomfortable’ but agreed to it as a way of allowing Muslim women to take part. For their part, the Muslim Association of Britain said it ‘could overcome misgivings’ about sharing platforms with ‘socialists and atheists’ as long as ‘Zionists and Israelis’ were not involved. That would be a compromise too far.

We're about, I suspect, to see some of these contradictions played out when Jeremy Corbyn's and Zarah Sultana's new leftist political party, provisionally called "Your Party" finally gets itself organised later this year. At the moment its parliamentary representation includes ex-Labour leftists Corbyn and Sultana and four independents who were elected on a pro-Palestine platform in the 2024 election, standing in protest against what they saw as Labour's support for Israel.

It's going to be very interesting indeed, when "Your Party" has finally to agree on a platform at their founding conference at the end of November, to see what sort of policies on women's and LGBTQIA+ rights they adopt that is acceptable both to Corbyn and Sultana and their secular left supporters and to the socially conservative pro-Palestine independents.

 

[Mona Eberhardt]

Oh crud, not again with the anti-Corbyn bullshit that was started by the ethnofascist land-stealing Gideon Falter.-

 

[Ellie]

Rather than call those who suport the current Israeli Govt. Zionists, Norman Finkelstein, who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Zionism, says this:

This has little to do with Zionism. Israel is a Jewish supremacist state, and it is acting in a way not unlike apartheid-era South Africa. Israel is a Jewish supremacist state determined to maintain a Jewish supremacist state within its borders and to crush any resistance on its periphery.

This has something to do with Zionism, but not as much as some might think. Zionism’s goal was to create a Jewish state, just as South Africa’s white nationalists sought to create a white state. However, invoking ideologies like Zionism can confuse the reality of the current situation, especially for people who haven’t, like myself, spent several years studying every detail of Zionism to write a dissertation.

If you frame it more plainly—as a Jewish supremacist state determined to maintain a population that is more or less purely Jewish while preserving its hegemony and dominance in the region, much like apartheid-era South Africa—the picture becomes much clearer.

Concerning the US:

I think it’s very difficult right now to defend Israel. To do so, you’d have to come across as either a psychopath or a moron; otherwise, it’s impossible to defend.

Prof. Finkelstein: Israel Will Mass Gazans at the Border, Bomb Relentlessly, and Force Egypt’s Hand - ECPS

On bringing up The Holocaust


Seems to me a case could be made for calling those who support the Palestinian genocide radical Zionists. Similar, perhaps, to the term radical Islamists.

Not comfortable using with the term Jewish supremacist in everyday speech myself.

Concerning the problematic "River to the Sea" slogan

So what do you do? You could limit yourself to simple demands, which everybody can agree on – namely, “permanent ceasefire”. During the war in Vietnam, there were two slogans at the end. One was “out now” – meaning “all the troops, out now”. It was a very simple slogan, and it united people. The other slogan was “sign the treaty” [to end the war].

Those slogans reduced the point of unity to the common denominator. Another possibility is to risk fragmentation by fighting it out. And a third is constructive ambiguity. Amend the slogan to: “From the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free.” It doesn’t endorse one state, it doesn’t endorse two states. It doesn’t say: “All Jews have to go.” It doesn’t say: “Jews can stay.” It just doesn’t imply: “We’re trying to get rid of Jews.” For me, the ideal slogan would actually be: “From the river to the sea, one person, one vote, Palestinians will be free.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/17/university-protests-gaza-norman-finkelstein

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Rather than call those who suport the current Israeli Govt. Zionists, Norman Finkelstein, who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Zionism, says this:



Concerning the US:



Prof. Finkelstein: Israel Will Mass Gazans at the Border, Bomb Relentlessly, and Force Egypt’s Hand - ECPS

On bringing up The Holocaust


Seems to me a case could be made for calling those who support the Palestinian genocide radical Zionists. Similar, perhaps, to the term radical Islamists.

Not comfortable using with the term Jewish supremacist in everyday speech myself.

Concerning the problematic "River to the Sea" slogan


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/17/university-protests-gaza-norman-finkelstein

I think you'd find Mark Mazower’s recent book Antisemitism: A Word in History very interesting -- he has a lot to say about the changing meanings of the term "Zionism" and the history of the movement.

Similarly, Timothy Snyder, in Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning, has a great deal to say about how the pre-war antisemitic Polish government helped to set up and train the Irgun, a right-wing paramilitary Revisionist Zionist movement, whose leaders, including Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, went on to become leading figures in Likud. Benjamin Netanyahu's father Benzion was also a leading figure and activist. The Polish government's motives were twofold -- partly they sympathised with Zionist religious nationalism, on the argument that just as the Poles should have an independent Polish homeland, so should the Jews have a Jewish homeland, rather than be subjects in someone else's empire, and partly because they wanted to encourage Polish Jews to emigrate to Israel and leave Poland to the Catholic Poles.

 

[Ellie]

Condemnation of the Palestinian genocide isn't antisemitism.

Innula Zenovka said

"...the Irgun, a right-wing paramilitary Revisionist Zionist movement, whose leaders, including Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, went on to become leading figures in Likud. Benjamin Netanyahu's father Benzion was also a leading figure and activist. "

You say activist, I say terrorist; one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

"Irgun committed acts of terrorism and assassination against the British, whom it regarded as illegal occupiers, and it was also violently anti-Arab. Irgun participated in the organization of illegal immigration into Palestine after the publication of the British White Paper on Palestine (1939), which severely limited immigration. Irgun’s violent activities led to execution of many of its members by the British; in retaliation, Irgun executed British army hostages."

"On July 22, 1946, Irgun blew up a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 soldiers and civilians (British, Arab, and Jewish). On April 9, 1948, a group of Irgun commandos raided the Arab village of Deir Yassin (modern Kefar Shaʾul), killing about 100 of its inhabitants."

Illegal occupation justification for terroristic acts? Unless, of course, you're the wrong color/religion.

Irgun Zvai Leumi | Meaning, Israel, Etzel, & Ideology | Britannica

As global awareness grows, Israel will find itself increasingly isolated on the world stage, despite desperate attempts to shut down social media criticism and the lawfare targeting any who disagree, especially in the US and UK, with the actions of Bibi, the Butcher of Gaza.

“And this gobshite has the gall to lecture the world about good and evil. The only evil in that hall was dripping from his podium, the voice of a man selling genocide as self-defense, apartheid as democracy, and colonial plunder as divine destiny.”

Bibi The Butcher

Meanwhile, Israeli forces are still killing dozens of Palestinians each day.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Condemnation of the Palestinian genocide isn't antisemitism.

Innula Zenovka said

You say activist, I say terrorist; one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



Illegal occupation justification for terroristic acts? Unless, of course, you're the wrong color/religion.

Irgun Zvai Leumi | Meaning, Israel, Etzel, & Ideology | Britannica

As global awareness grows, Israel will find itself increasingly isolated on the world stage, despite desperate attempts to shut down social media criticism and the lawfare targeting any who disagree, especially in the US and UK, with the actions of Bibi, the Butcher of Gaza.



Bibi The Butcher

Meanwhile, Israeli forces are still killing dozens of Palestinians each day.

Certainly the Irgun and the Stern Gang were terrorists. I wasn't, though, aware that Benzion Netanyahu participated in their actual operations -- besides his academic career he was a propagandist, theoretician and political activist rather than someone who engaged in paramilitary or terrorist operations.

For that reason, I think it's more accurate to describe him as an activist rather than as a terrorist, a term I would rather reserve for people who actually carry out acts of terrorism. So, in the context of Northern Ireland during the troubles, I'd refer to members of Sinn Fein as activists and members of PIRA active service units as terrorists, even though Sinn Fein was acknowledged as the political wing of PIRA and it was an open secret that their leading members were ex officio members of the PIRA ruling council.

 

[Isabeau]

I don't even know what to say. So many layers of insanity.

Israel’s top military lawyer arrested after she admitted leaking video of soldiers’ abuse

 

[Free]

I don't even know what to say. So many layers of insanity.

Israel’s top military lawyer arrested after she admitted leaking video of soldiers’ abuse

The insanity gets sidetracked by the lunacy.

Ex-Israeli army legal chief 'stages suicide' amid Palestinian prisoner rape scandal

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Reuters: Exclusive: US intel found Israeli military lawyers warned there was evidence of Gaza war crimes, former US officials say

The American debate about whether the Israelis had committed war crimes in Gaza ended when lawyers from across the U.S. government determined that it was still legal for the U.S. to continue supporting Israel with weapons and intelligence because the U.S. had not gathered its own evidence that Israel was violating the law of armed conflict, according to three former U.S. officials.

They reasoned that the intelligence and evidence gathered by the U.S. itself did not prove the Israelis had intentionally killed civilians and humanitarians or blocked aid, a key factor in legal liability.

Some senior Biden administration officials feared that a formal U.S. finding of Israeli war crimes would force Washington to cut off arms and intelligence support — a move they worried could embolden Hamas, delay ceasefire negotiations, and shift the political narrative in favor of the militant group. Hamas killed 1,200 people and abducted 251 in its October 7, 2023, attack, prompting Israel’s military response.

The decision to stay the course exasperated some of those involved who believed that the Biden administration should have been more forceful in calling out Israel’s alleged abuses and the U.S. role in enabling them, said former U.S. officials.

President Trump and his officials were briefed by Biden’s team on the intelligence but showed little interest in the subject after they took over in January and began siding more powerfully with the Israelis, said the former U.S. officials.