Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

[Han Held]

The Democratic Party feels like the Titanic after hitting the iceberg in 2016, and this 2020 election is a pretense that there is some fair plan to rescue everybody on the ship. It's impossible. This ship doesn't have enough lifeboats and the Democrats have spent decades overselling their fictional first class tickets.

We're all trying to unite under Trump as the biggest threat, but "survival" keeps getting in the way and it's making for some colorful alliances.

Let's just be honest. Gabbard and Warren have the same mission. They are there to destroy opposition to a larger plan.

There is no larger plan.

None.

Short term morons with short term thinking are looting all that they can loot knowing that the world's gonna burn regardless.

That's the true horror -there's no evil masterminds, no cabals, just a bunch of ethically challenged short-sighted rich fucks sucking up everything they can -lurching from crisis to crisis, acting reflexively. (EDIT: yes, including what I wrote in my previous post; it's a reaction to Bernie's persistent popularity -there's no marching orders from the illuminati or someshit; it's a reflex. "If they like Bernie, maybe we can sell them Bernie-But-Friendly-To-Billionares")

There's no one at the wheel, and the ship of state is veering into the rocks.

 

[Cristalle]

I'm not sure if my posts feed into that impression or not. In case I am, let me put my actual opinion out there.
I don't feel that Warren is the anti-christ, and I would vote for her -cheerfully, if Bernie isn't an option.

That said, there is a very clear and definite shell game being played here.

She's being held up as a radical that she really simply is not ("Billionaires hate her! See why!"), and she's being held up as this by the media and by people such as Bill Gates who know full well that she's far less of a threat to them than they make her out to be.

This is so that people who realize we need radical -even drastic- reform will see that and get suckered into thinking she's something she's not.

This is so people get the impression "she's like Bernie, but practical" or someshit.

I'm certain she's a positive influence, and would make a very good president -but she's no fucking Emma Goldman, regardless of what the billionares claim.

And yes, I am gleeful about pointing that out when I can; not out of malice or even dislike of Warren, but simply because it's bullshit.

Yes, that's my issue. She's aping Sanders on a lot of issues. A lot of it is genuine, but on certain issues - Medicare for All in particular - I expect that she will do the pivot. Pivoting will depress turnout. And no, it won't be because of misogyny or Russia.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

I am wary of the "if Russia wants it it must be bad" reflex logic. By definition there have to be times where we will have to work with Russia and achieve mutual goals. So a knee-jerk Putin wants this or that therefore we must do the opposite does not sit well with me. We will need to work with them on climate change. Are we not supposed to do that? We will need their involvement in certain conflicts. The only way that works is if we have mutual goals.

20 years ago, I'd agree with you. But we cannot forget - nor forgive - that the Russians hacked our election, hacked the DNC (and released personal emails to Wikileaks) as well as invading Ukraine and Crimea, annexing Crimea. Before we consider playing footsie with another state, I think we should look at their behavior and the message we're sending to our allies.

Trump has moved us outside of the boundaries of normal diplomacy . So I don't expect it to happen until he's out of office. The sooner the better.

 

[Cristalle]

20 years ago, I'd agree with you. But we cannot forget - nor forgive - that the Russians hacked our election, hacked the DNC (and released personal emails to Wikileaks) as well as invading Ukraine and Crimea, annexing Crimea. Before we consider playing footsie with another state, I think we should look at their behavior and the message we're sending to our allies.

Trump has moved us outside of the boundaries of normal diplomacy . So I don't expect it to happen until he's out of office. The sooner the better.

I haven't forgotten those things (some of which we are guilty of doing too - hello Venezuela, Honduras, and now Bolivia!). But it doesn't change the fact that we need to look at things issue-by-issue with Russia or any country. That's just common sense. Why would we work against our own interest? Why would they? Climate change is my big issue with them but it's not the only issue.

I'm mostly concerned with a knee-jerk reaction that prevents us from seeking peace just because Russia wants a particular outcome, however ideal or not it may be. I am sick and tired of us continually spending trillions of dollars a year and putting people in harm's way because of the Russia bogeyman. We have not been able to accept that there is no military solution to the problems in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Yet year after year, for a generation now, we have been fighting people and creating more terrorists with our illegal operations. That's enough. Russia is a powerful and influential country, true. Vladimir Putin should not be trusted, true. That said, we cannot just as a reflex rely on our id with the "Russia bad" grunt.

 

[Eunoli]

Russia is actively attacking the United States daily. They attacked our last elections. They are already attacking our next. I don't /care/ what the US has done in the past. We do not give up our legitimacy or our freedom to a foreign power - especially one we've been at odds with for a very long time.

No. You don't look at each item individually. I look at it as "this country is in an undeclared war with ours - and its winning". There is no room for wiggle in that. There is no "we're as bad as them so we should turn a blind eye".

 

[Cindy Claveau]

I haven't forgotten those things (some of which we are guilty of doing too - hello Venezuela, Honduras, and now Bolivia!). But it doesn't change the fact that we need to look at things issue-by-issue with Russia or any country. That's just common sense. Why would we work against our own interest? Why would they? Climate change is my big issue with them but it's not the only issue.

Absolutely we can't ignore our own actions, but that (to me) is a distraction right now. First get rid of Trump and hopefully the next President has a scintilla of brains to know that we need to change foreign policy.

 

[Cristalle]

Russia is actively attacking the United States daily. They attacked our last elections. They are already attacking our next. I don't /care/ what the US has done in the past. We do not give up our legitimacy or our freedom to a foreign power - especially one we've been at odds with for a very long time.

No. You don't look at each item individually. I look at it as "this country is in an undeclared war with ours - and its winning". There is no room for wiggle in that. There is no "we're as bad as them so we should turn a blind eye".

Yes you do look at each item individually, because they may have a mutual interest. Your fearful approach is just reactionary. Using your logic, we can't approach them about climate change, or mediating the conflict with Turkey. It's highly reactionary, unrealistic, and will hurt us in the end. No one is saying that we should give up our freedom, but we have to be realistic about who we have to deal with. We're not a toddler that just rants and demands its own way. We have to work in congruence with other nations. And they are a significant power.

 

[Eunoli]

Yes you do look at each item individually, because they may have a mutual interest. Your fearful approach is just reactionary. Using your logic, we can't approach them about climate change, or mediating the conflict with Turkey. It's highly reactionary, unrealistic, and will hurt us in the end. No one is saying that we should give up our freedom, but we have to be realistic about who we have to deal with. We're not a toddler that just rants and demands its own way. We have to work in congruence with other nations. And they are a significant power.

If someone is breaking into my house - I don't go outside and ask them if they'll help me move the couch. If someone is trying to stab me, I don't engage with them on going out to dinner and splitting the bill.

Not working with those who are actively attacking you is not behaving fearfully. It is protecting our democracy. Working instead with our allies to keep them in check is what a responsible country does. Of course, Trump doesn't do that. He tries to alienate our allies.

But, thanks for proving all my previous posts about Russian talking points correct.

 

[Beebo Brink]

I do like some of the discussion that has emerged at times from this thread, but for quite some time now it's just fucking crazy stuff. I put it on Ignore for awhile, gave myself some time to cool off, then came back thinking I had over-reacted before. But nope, crazy still reigns. I'm outa here.

 

[danielravennest]

Except, the president was NOT exonerated. The Mueller investigation did not conclusively prove no collusion existed, and Mueller even stated the only reason he didn't indict Trump was because he was prohibited by the DoJ from doing so!

Meanwhile, in the trial of Roger Stone, which is finishing up, Rick Gates (deputy campaign chairman) testified that Stone was the link between Trump and Wikileaks, who released the emails the Russians had stolen. They knew about it before the release, and were happy for it to happen, because it helped his campaign. Stone and Trump go way back. The fact that there were middlemen between Russia and Trump does not prevent it being a conspiracy. It just means more people are involved in the conspiracy. The actual crimes involved are accepting stolen goods (the hacked emails), and contributing a "thing of value" by a foreign source to a political campaign. The "thing" in this case being dirt on a political opponent.

 

[danielravennest]

There is no larger plan.

That's the true horror -there's no evil masterminds, no cabals,

There's no need for secret meetings in dark, smoke-filled rooms, because everyone in the capitalist financial system follows the same plan: maximize profits at the expense of everything else. They act individually, but end up all going in the same direction.

 

[danielravennest]

Using your logic, we can't approach them about climate change,

In the case of Russia, we can't. They depend heavily on fossil fuel production for their income, and global warming makes Russia a nicer place to live. If it makes the Middle East uninhabitable, so much the better, they are business competitors. So is the US as a result of fracking. We are their enemy too from a business standpoint.

 

[Cristiano]

Yes you do look at each item individually, because they may have a mutual interest. Your fearful approach is just reactionary. Using your logic, we can't approach them about climate change, or mediating the conflict with Turkey. It's highly reactionary, unrealistic, and will hurt us in the end. No one is saying that we should give up our freedom, but we have to be realistic about who we have to deal with. We're not a toddler that just rants and demands its own way. We have to work in congruence with other nations. And they are a significant power.

Her approach is neither fearful or illogical. On the other hand, your constant oversimplification and condescension on this issue is just nauseating. Russia is actively, aggressively trying to disrupt our democracy to favor its own interests. We aren't going to hold hands with them on topics of mutual benefit, that's just stupidity. While Putin is in power, Russia is an enemy of the US and our interests. He wants nothing more than to destabilize the US and other countries in a grab for more power for himself.

 

[Essence Lumin]

While Putin is in power, Russia is an enemy of the US and our interests. He wants nothing more than to destabilize the US and other countries in a grab for more power for himself.

True enough. It doesn't seem like anyone running is talking much about that, such as Bernie, Elizabeth, Joe or Tulsi.

 

[Cristiano]

Also, we don't even have our own house in order when it comes to climate change, so this bizarre fantasy that we will somehow work together with Russia on it is crazy.

 

[Free]

crazy

This is the thread for it.

 

[Cristalle]

Her approach is neither fearful or illogical. On the other hand, your constant oversimplification and condescension on this issue is just nauseating. Russia is actively, aggressively trying to disrupt our democracy to favor its own interests. We aren't going to hold hands with them on topics of mutual benefit, that's just stupidity. While Putin is in power, Russia is an enemy of the US and our interests. He wants nothing more than to destabilize the US and other countries in a grab for more power for himself.

It's not "holding hands," it's a transactional relationship. It's like when Obama asked them to step in on Syria. We aren't friends, we aren't going to sing Kumbaya, but we will have to work with them from time to time.

 

[Aeon Jiminy]

Russia is actively attacking the United States daily. They attacked our last elections. They are already attacking our next. I don't /care/ what the US has done in the past. We do not give up our legitimacy or our freedom to a foreign power - especially one we've been at odds with for a very long time.

No. You don't look at each item individually. I look at it as "this country is in an undeclared war with ours - and its winning". There is no room for wiggle in that. There is no "we're as bad as them so we should turn a blind eye".

I find this point of view, and how well-received it is, troubling on many levels.

If you honestly believe that the United States is losing this "undeclared war", I shudder to think of what it will take for you to feel we are winning it. It's a freakin' election. For God's sake, get a grip on reality. The United States once had the power to put a man on the moon. Now it's citizen's have been reduced to chicken-assed cowards who can't imagine they have the ability to cast a vote and have it counted. It's not Russia that's taking your mind away from you.

All you have to do is put your will on a piece of paper and have it tallied by honest neighbors in your community. Then you gather the tallies and count 1-2-3. It's time- consuming, but it's not complicated. Unless Russia is dropping bombs on your polling place, your anxiety is coming from sources in this country that do not want you to have a voice, are making it as complicated as possible for you to think clearly, making you believe that there are spooks around every corner, and are going to unbelievable lengths to steal your Constitutional Rights and freedom out from under your nose.

Please, can we at least consider that the solution to our problems may be as simple as a good house cleaning and a pen and paper before we spin the roulette wheel and set the world on fire? Maybe some of you have a bunker. I don't, and I'd prefer to not to have my ass fried because Hillary Clinton didn't win an election.

If Trump/Russia is such a threat, why would any sane US Congressperson vote to hand Putin more military money and power than he even asked for?

Our problems with Russia are ABSOLUTELY not beyond diplomacy, adulthood, and our own ability to use our knowledge and resources to build a prosperous and peaceful society with our own hands.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

taking your mind away from you

"You're crazy" -Claaaaaaaasic

 

[Essence Lumin]

We can all just get along! Peace, Love and Happiness! I would like to invite all of you in the 147 pages of this thread to sing. I would especially like to invite those of you who have recently participated in the discourse of the last four pages.

Aeon Jiminy, Anya Ristow, Bartholomew Gallacher, Beebo Brink, Cindy Claveau, Cristalle, Cristiano, danielravennest, Eunoli, Free, Han Held, Kamilah Hauptmann, Katheryne Helendale, Romana, Salome

Jesus Loves you! Everybody please hold hands together and chant with me.