Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

[Aeon Jiminy]

I have a couple of questions for the forum regarding who is to blame for Trump.

1. Why is it never considered that Hillary Clinton should have dropped out of the race and fallen on her sword before the primary? She was embroiled in controversy and her opponent (Sanders) was polling higher against Trump than her. It would have been a more likely win against Trump.

2. Why did she pick Tim Kaine over Bernie Sanders or even Elizabeth Warren? Wouldn't an olive branch to the 45% of the divided party been appropriate?

 

[Cristalle]

You keep saying that they should hold no responsibility or you weaken it with everything else that happened. When exactly will they own up to their part in it? I'm not seeing that happen, and it never will as long as others continue to justify it for them. As long as they never have to face it, they will probably do it again. They didn't learn the lesson after Bush/Gore/Nader and they haven't learned it this time despite the horrendous result. There has never been a more important time to vote, not for yourself, but to vote on behalf of others, to stand up against tyranny, to take a stand and they utterly fail and are proud of it.

These people are too flaky and self-serving to be counted upon as allies.

I don't consider them allies. But people vote what they think their interests are, and there is a large population of cynical people who think "no matter who is in power, it's all the same." For a certain segment of the population, there is a lot of truth to that. Barack Obama deported more people than Trump has, they called him Deporter in Chief. And we wonder why Latino turnout for Hillary was low? We still had a lot of racist police getting off scot free. Eric Holder didn't bring charges against Daniel Pantaleo. Loretta Lynch didn't bring charges against Pantaleo. Jeff Sessions didn't bring charges against Pantaleo. People are pissed at Bill Barr for not doing it? What has changed for Eric Garner's family?

We have got to get people out there who are authentic about upending the system, so that the people who stay home because they don't believe in anything have something to believe in. And the third party voters will have someone they can believe in.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

It won't be the Republicans, The Chinese, or The Russians that fire the first round of nukes. It will be the Neoliberals in the name of righteousness.

"Neoliberals". Now there's a dogwhistle if I ever saw one.

 

[Brenda Archer]

It won't be the Republicans, The Chinese, or The Russians that fire the first round of nukes. It will be the Neoliberals in the name of righteousness.

Please do keep coming at us with the lib bashing memes, it’s very revealing.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

I have a couple of questions for the forum regarding who is to blame for Trump.

dis·in·gen·u·ous
/ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/
adjective
adjective: disingenuous

1. not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

 

[Anya Ristow]

Michigan: Difference between HRC/DJT; 10,704 People that voted Stein 51,463

You're cherry picking the results. Gary Johnson won 172,136 votes in Michigan, hurting Trump more than Stein hurt Clinton.

You presume Stein's votes belonged to Clinton. Ignoring the hypocrisy in crying about the destruction of democracy while insisting those people vote for your candidate rather than their own, it should also be noted that, when polled, Stein voters said 2 to 1 that they would have otherwise stayed home, hurting down-ticket dems, OR VOTED FOR TRUMP.

Also...

Clinton underperformed Obama in just the couple counties around Detroit by 300,000 votes. That's 28 times Trump's margin of victory.

But here's the really weird part. There were 75,000 votes uncounted in Detroit, not exactly Trump country, because the machines, for whatever reason, wouldn't count them [*cough* shenanigans *cough*]. Jill Stein sued to have them counted by hand. She collected millions of dollars for the effort, and Michigan voters were on the hook for millions more, and that count was scheduled to happen. In words, but not with money or logistics or legal help, Clinton supported this effort. Trump sued, saying Stein didn't have standing, because she couldn't possibly win a recount, and a judge agreed. But Clinton's lawyers were in the courtroom and were asked what they wanted to do.

THEY SAID THEY WERE JUST THERE TO OBSERVE!

So, Stein and her recount were tossed out of court, and Clinton lost Michigan.

I'm not ready to forgive, nor am I going to coddle them. I don't assign equal blame as I would someone who actively voted for him, but neither will I say "What you did was only voting your conscience and you should be applauded". Their conscience should be aching pretty damn hard right now, but I see no evidence of it whatsoever. It's much harder to get rid of a tyrant once they have power than it was giving them power in the beginning.

Just a reminder, those people were told their help wasn't needed or even wanted. They were insulted, berated with propaganda, gaslighted, told their concerns were right-wing talking points, met with denial, lies and fake news, and generally told to fuck off. How well did that work out?

 

[Eunoli]

Sorry, are we seriously re-litigating the 2016 election? It literally has nothing to do with the last except for the lesson learned that the party has to be united if it is to have a chance in hell. I say that with the tiny bit of authority of having been the person shouting "WE ARE GOING TO LOSE" on SLU for months before that election.

The electoral college is against us. The Republicans will have foreign help, possibly including voter registration rolls and even hacked results. Our chances of winning with a strong centrist candidate are slight. Our chances of winning with someone only one edge of the party or the other likes is non-existent. That's not a great scenario, but its the flat out truth, in my opinion. We take some of the swing states back or we are hosed and so is democracy as we know it.

 

[Anya Ristow]

While you're assigning blame, there's also this:
They Always Wanted Trump [Politico]

 

[Spirits Rising]

If this one thread is any clear indication ... we're all fucked.

 

[Aeon Jiminy]

Sorry, are we seriously re-litigating the 2016 election? It literally has nothing to do with the last except for the lesson learned that the party has to be united if it is to have a chance in hell. I say that with the tiny bit of authority of having been the person shouting "WE ARE GOING TO LOSE" on SLU for months before that election.

The electoral college is against us. The Republicans will have foreign help, possibly including voter registration rolls and even hacked results. Our chances of winning with a strong centrist candidate are slight. Our chances of winning with someone only one edge of the party or the other likes is non-existent. That's not a great scenario, but its the flat out truth, in my opinion. We take some of the swing states back or we are hosed and so is democracy as we know it.

I agree. I think that everyone is going to have a very difficult time finding the center of Fascism vs. Cold War/McCarthyism.

 

[Brenda Archer]

.

There are always, always going to be 3rd party voters. That is part of our democracy. To expect that all the people against Trump would vote for Clinton is not realistic. These voters are a tiny sliver of the population and most of these are people that would NEVER have voted Democratic anyway. More people voted for Gary Johnson than Jill Stein and you're not berating them. Why? Because they would never have voted Democratic anyway. The people to blame are the people who stayed home, since there are more of them than any single group. And some of those were not allowed to vote because of voter suppression. Voter suppression in Wisconsin alone was something like what, 200k voters? Trying to blame third party voters when someone loses is just weak sauce.

The Democratic candidate did not energize enough people to vote, and that's the story. Not enough people to overcome voter suppression. And because they were a pile of shit that allowed 1000 state houses to flip Republican, we got horrible legislatures rigging elections for a generation. The party has to be built from the ground up at the state level, like the wingnuts have done since the 70s and 80s.

Have I not been ranting through this whole forum about local local local and getting out the new young vote since forever?

But recycling butthurt about Clinton into a claim the whole Dem party isn’t trying hard enough doesn’t make sense.

The fact of the matter is that in America, where we’ve been told for so long that nobody left of Clinton had a chance, DOES NOT HAVE A VIABLE LEFT PARTY. The Greens we have certainly are not it and I don’t trust them.

Bernie’s machine could possibly be it, and as a northern New Englander I understand him and trust him, but he ultimately threw his support to Clinton and why? Because he could see what was coming at us in this country. He will support whoever the Dems pick this time too, for the same reason.

There is no room left for the luxury of butthurt and I refuse to take anybody seriously who isn’t building a machine in my state and by George that is what the Dems are doing.

And look at what happened in GA which by rights ought to have a Dem governor now? We’re fighting with a faction that’s willing to break the law to steal elections and people are all whiny butthurt because the Dems aren’t perfect because of whatever.

Why should a Left person support a basically centrist, basically hawkish party? It’s all we have. Is there ever going to be an effective Left party? It will have to become a valid, effective participant in a large state’s legislature before it has enough experience for people to take it seriously.

The disenfranchised are disproportionately the young. And instead of seeing this for what it is, people joke about Millennials and paint them as snowflakes. Does anybody really care about getting out the vote who will do okay under Republican austerity and Puritanism?

I don’t believe it. Everyone doing deep activism right now is in some sense fighting for survival. So telling the people who are trying to do something that they’re not trying enough is really just expecting someone else to do it.

Anybody who can’t get excited enough to vote, and who is able and knowledgeable, is really saying they’re okay with Republicans and there are many, many of these people because of religiosity and because of just going along with what they hear on TV.

 

[Eunoli]

Bernie’s machine could possibly be it, and as a northern New Englander I understand him and trust him, but he ultimately threw his support to Clinton and why? Because he could see what was coming at us in this country. He will support whoever the Dems pick this time too, for the same reason.

I received a fundraising email from Bernie's campaign last week that was basically a Biden attack. This post isn't to litigate his horrible statement the other week or his other myriad of issues - but to point out that Bernie already seems to be going down an "attack the other candidates" path that doesn't bode well to this whole thing not ending with everyone dead from the circular firing squad or followers willing to vote for the opposition if they get the nomination.

Again, this post isn't to defend Biden. The purpose is to show that the candidates are turning down the attack path in a way that could be hard to walk back after a nomination if it goes that way.

The corporate media would love nothing more than for us to forget that Bernie's policy vision is being copied by almost every other candidate in the race.

Ideally, they want us to vote for Joe Biden, a man who refuses to apologize for working with segregationists and just this week publicly lied about what Medicare for All means.

 

[Anya Ristow]

I received a fundraising email from Bernie's campaign last week that was basically a Biden attack.

Bernie's emails have sucked of late.

Again, this post isn't to defend Biden. The purpose is to show that the candidates are turning down the attack path in a way that could be hard to walk back after a nomination if it goes that way.

I offer Clinton/Obama as evidence that that doesn't have to happen. That was some nasty shit, and they are said to still harbor ill will toward each other, but they can appear otherwise. And I'm about to be told it didn't even happen.

 

[Cristalle]

.


Have I not been ranting through this whole forum about local local local and getting out the new young vote since forever?

But recycling butthurt about Clinton into a claim the whole Dem party isn’t trying hard enough doesn’t make sense.

The fact of the matter is that in America, where we’ve been told for so long that nobody left of Clinton had a chance, DOES NOT HAVE A VIABLE LEFT PARTY. The Greens we have certainly are not it and I don’t trust them.

Bernie’s machine could possibly be it, and as a northern New Englander I understand him and trust him, but he ultimately threw his support to Clinton and why? Because he could see what was coming at us in this country. He will support whoever the Dems pick this time too, for the same reason.

There is no room left for the luxury of butthurt and I refuse to take anybody seriously who isn’t building a machine in my state and by George that is what the Dems are doing.

And look at what happened in GA which by rights ought to have a Dem governor now? We’re fighting with a faction that’s willing to break the law to steal elections and people are all whiny butthurt because the Dems aren’t perfect because of whatever.

Why should a Left person support a basically centrist, basically hawkish party? It’s all we have. Is there ever going to be an effective Left party? It will have to become a valid, effective participant in a large state’s legislature before it has enough experience for people to take it seriously.

The disenfranchised are disproportionately the young. And instead of seeing this for what it is, people joke about Millennials and paint them as snowflakes. Does anybody really care about getting out the vote who will do okay under Republican austerity and Puritanism?

I don’t believe it. Everyone doing deep activism right now is in some sense fighting for survival. So telling the people who are trying to do something that they’re not trying enough is really just expecting someone else to do it.

Anybody who can’t get excited enough to vote, and who is able and knowledgeable, is really saying they’re okay with Republicans and there are many, many of these people because of religiosity and because of just going along with what they hear on TV.

All I am saying is that the existence of third party voters are baked in, so demonizing people for their choices are not a good strategy for attracting people to the party. If they see no reason to vote for a particular candidate, they won't budge. I'm not saying that the people doing the work are not trying hard enough. I am saying that if the candidates they set forth don't earn the votes, then this is what we have to deal with. No one is entitled to the votes.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I received a fundraising email from Bernie's campaign last week that was basically a Biden attack. This post isn't to litigate his horrible statement the other week or his other myriad of issues - but to point out that Bernie already seems to be going down an "attack the other candidates" path that doesn't bode well to this whole thing not ending with everyone dead from the circular firing squad or followers willing to vote for the opposition if they get the nomination.

Again, this post isn't to defend Biden. The purpose is to show that the candidates are turning down the attack path in a way that could be hard to walk back after a nomination if it goes that way.

Thanks, that’s not good at all.

Honestly I wish everyone who isn’t Harris or Warren would get out.

I don’t trust Bernie Bros willing to vote for a Republican. It makes no sense whatsoever. So I’m not afraid if they get “offended,” they’re clearly not Dem Soc anyway.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Bernie's emails have sucked of late.



I offer Clinton/Obama as evidence that that doesn't have to happen. That was some nasty shit, and they are said to still harbor ill will toward each other, but they can appear otherwise. And I'm about to be told it didn't even happen.

It did happen, I remember.

I don’t much mind that high level politics is a blood sport, up to a point.

I’m just frustrated because people still aren’t frightened enough of an actual Nazi opponent. They haven’t changed in a century. And as a woman, a queer, a disabled person, and a religious minority, I’m on the short list.

Who can afford in this environment to not be scared to death? So honestly anyone who isn’t has my suspicion. We’re even getting old fashioned conservatives go Dem because they’re scared enough (in the original definition of conservatives = not fascist) and yet people are still treating this whole thing like some kind of reality TV.

I have long had a theory that the whole broadcast TV generation has had a break with reality and only a few have resisted it. So Murdoch et al were inevitable. I am planning to read this book: Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television - Kindle edition by Jerry Mander. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

I haven’t owned a TV since 1989 because I felt this way.

 

[Galen McGinnis]

Ok complicated. A challenger to a candidate for the Dem nom nom (couldn't resist). Really are a rare bunch these R's.

Pro-Trump Republican aiming to unseat Ilhan Omar charged with felony theft

 

[Soen Eber]

<tangent \> OK I'm confused by the negative reaction to his neoliberal statement. Bush 43 had a hawkish cabinet packed with "Anarchy is fine, all they need are elections" neolibs running the Iraq war policy, so in my book neolibs are to liberal democracy what 19th century classical liberal economic theory is to Irish famine relief.

So yes, I can see neolibs starting World War 3, anyone seeing reality through a tightly constrained filter set based on flowcharts and decision trees and MacNamarish game theory full of predictable outcomes with huge reality gaps (Schlieffen plan, anyone? No? Well then how about domino theory?) has high odds of lighting the world on fire.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

.


Have I not been ranting through this whole forum about local local local and getting out the new young vote since forever?

But recycling butthurt about Clinton into a claim the whole Dem party isn’t trying hard enough doesn’t make sense.

The fact of the matter is that in America, where we’ve been told for so long that nobody left of Clinton had a chance, DOES NOT HAVE A VIABLE LEFT PARTY. The Greens we have certainly are not it and I don’t trust them.

Bernie’s machine could possibly be it, and as a northern New Englander I understand him and trust him, but he ultimately threw his support to Clinton and why? Because he could see what was coming at us in this country. He will support whoever the Dems pick this time too, for the same reason.

There is no room left for the luxury of butthurt and I refuse to take anybody seriously who isn’t building a machine in my state and by George that is what the Dems are doing.

And look at what happened in GA which by rights ought to have a Dem governor now? We’re fighting with a faction that’s willing to break the law to steal elections and people are all whiny butthurt because the Dems aren’t perfect because of whatever.

Why should a Left person support a basically centrist, basically hawkish party? It’s all we have. Is there ever going to be an effective Left party? It will have to become a valid, effective participant in a large state’s legislature before it has enough experience for people to take it seriously.

The disenfranchised are disproportionately the young. And instead of seeing this for what it is, people joke about Millennials and paint them as snowflakes. Does anybody really care about getting out the vote who will do okay under Republican austerity and Puritanism?

I don’t believe it. Everyone doing deep activism right now is in some sense fighting for survival. So telling the people who are trying to do something that they’re not trying enough is really just expecting someone else to do it.

Anybody who can’t get excited enough to vote, and who is able and knowledgeable, is really saying they’re okay with Republicans and there are many, many of these people because of religiosity and because of just going along with what they hear on TV.

Basically, it all comes down to this: Let's work on getting Trump out of office, taking back the Senate, and getting this ship back on an even keel. Once that's done, then let's worry about moving the Democratic Party leftward.

 

[Brenda Archer]

.

<tangent \> OK I'm confused by the negative reaction to his neoliberal statement. Bush 43 had a hawkish cabinet packed with "Anarchy is fine, all they need are elections" neolibs running the Iraq war policy, so in my book neolibs are to liberal democracy what 19th century classical liberal economic theory is to Irish famine relief.

So yes, I can see neolibs starting World War 3, anyone seeing reality through a tightly constrained filter set based on flowcharts and decision trees and MacNamarish game theory full of predictable outcomes with huge reality gaps (Schlieffen plan, anyone? No? Well then how about domino theory?) has high odds of lighting the world on fire.

Or am I missing something?

Agreed, it’s just that I’m not a neoliberal merely for supporting Dem centrists or for thinking we should care about the effects on allies and the vulnerable when/if we pull out of a war the neoliberals started. It’s not necessarily neoliberal to want to make sure the human damage is minimized where the neoliberals started a war or sent “advisors” even if that means staying involved longer than strict doves would like.

Just because we’re not in a hot shooting war with our enemies doesn’t mean we’re not in a war by other means. And it’s impossible to be isolationist in a world where there is no effective geographical isolation. These ideas do not make me a neoliberal or a supporter of America as “world police.” I would love it if we handed off that role to a coalition of democracies, but that won’t happen until the hard Right is pushed out of Federal power.

It’s especially not neoliberal to acknowledge we’re in a war-by-other-means with Putin and that makes our hard Right collaborators into traitors.